I know that Engineering Technology is NOT Engineering (in fact, the list of courses makes that very clear).
However, the student has no choice and must attend this university (incontrovertible financial circumstances make it the only possible choice). So, she has to “make do” with the majors they offer and complement the best she can.
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What classes can she take to reinforce her degree and do not make it impossible for her to get into a Master’s program?
Her original goal was Environmental Engineering with a Physics minor. A light physics minor is offered, and will be taken. However, how can she best complement the Environmental Engineering Technology program so that she has a shot at continuing with Engineering either as a transfer or for her Master’s degree?
She’s basically completed her general education classes but has a lot of technical classes to take so she’ll need to maximize the spots she has for electives. For instance, there’s a math major = would taking further classes (Differential Equations? Discrete Math? Linear Algebra??) be useful? What about taking Biochemistry? What about CS? Chemistry? Geology? What classes/level?
They offer Environmental Science as a minor, too - would that be of use?
Thanks for the help
I have zero direct knowledge but I would pull up the course curriculum for environmental engineering at another school and see what’s missing. Also, some masters programs will list their prereqs.
It’s a tough situation because it’s not just the math courses that are a problem, but the fact that the core 200-, 300-, and 400-level ET courses are taught at a level that assumes the students doesn’t have that math background.
Extra math will be a must: differential equations for sure, linear algebra and statistics would be nice, too. A PDEs would look good but is beyond what most undergraduate engineers take. This might be a rare situation where a double major in math is actually helpful.
To even have a string of hope: one way to complement the Environmental Engineering Technology program as a consideration for her Master;s degree is couple it with additional professional career experience and certifications like six sigma, EIT (Engineering in Training), LEED, etc. Most of the shortcoming of the ET program can be made up with professional work experience. She just have to make it work for herself.
If you are planning to get your engineering license in the future take all the math classes from Calculus all the up to Linear Algebra. Now in terms of getting into a Master’s degree program, lets be honest, not all classes you are planning to take for your Master’s degree would require all the maths classes, some just require up to Calculus II. So select the courses you want to take and see what are the required prerequisites for the university she want to attend.
Engineering and Engineering Technology might NOT be the same in terms of the branch of knowledge but they are both the same in terms of “importance and value”. There is a word “technology” in STEM.
Not true for all ET programs. For some yes but not all. Some ET programs are good with the math but have deficiencies in engineering science courses.
This really won’t even help much in most cases. Graduate engineering curricula don’t honestly care if you know about green building standards or six sigma (unless maybe you are looking into industrial engineering). What graduate programs care about is whether or not you have the strength in mathematics and the relevant sciences to dig more deeply into one or more topics than what is typically covered in an undergraduate engineering curriculum.
At least in my field, every single technical graduate course is going to assume you are absolutely competent with differential equations and often additional topics such as partial differential equations, linear algebra, and/or complex variables. Maybe there are a few out there that require only calculus II, but this is not typical. Even so, do you want to be prepared for all of your classes or just some of them?
No one here claimed otherwise. They are different. That doesn’t make one more or less useful than the other.
For most, actually. ABET ETAC does not require anything beyond Calculus II for accreditation, and that is the highest level that most ET programs require.
You are contradicting yourself here. You can’t have it both ways. You are saying one is more less useful, important, and valuable than the other. Just choose one!
Again, what I am agreeing to is that Engineering and Engineering Technology is different in terms of the branch knowledge. But ET is not less important or valuable than Engineering that is what I am choosing. They are the same in importance and value.
There are exceptions that is what I am trying to say.
Ok, so one having their EIT certificate doesn’t demonstrate they are proficient in math and science or understanding topics in an undergraduate engineering curriculum??? Second, green building standard are important in civil engineering that is why they offer the certifications. Along with CMIT certifications. Than they need to find a school that would consider their applications as whole not just the math and science topics they took.
@IncorE206, @boneh3ad is a professor at a university that hires graduate students. As both a successful PhD applicant and now an evaluator of applicants, he has a pretty good handle on what it takes to get into a graduate program.
As for ET vs. engineer, there are posters that occasionally label ETs as “less than.” I’ve never seen that be @boneh3ad though. He is very deferential, always saying they are different, each with their own place. He will rightly push back when posters try to claim they are equivalent. They are not. Lack of equivalence does not make one better than the other.
I challenge you to find one place where I said that engineering technology is less useful, important, or valuable than engineering.
Not necessarily. At least, not at a level that necessarily translates to graduate school. It’s not a bad thing, but it helps less than you think.
I didn’t say LEED certification was useless. I said it wasn’t a credential that would help you with graduate school admissions in most cases.
Graduate school admissions do look at more than just courses. When I am evaluating a student for admission into our program, I am looking primarily for two things: do they have the educational/technical background required to successfully navigate the rigors of our program, and if they are applying for a research degree, do their research interests align with any of the faculty in our department.
Work experience, especially relevant work experience, counts. Research experience of any kind counts, with bonus points if the applicant has published, even if only at a conference. GRE scores count, though not all that heavily. Coursework (and GPA in that coursework) counts.
Plain and simple, if I look at applicant with an ET degree, they better have some compelling supporting evidence that they are going to succeed in our program or else they have no chance. Extra math beyond the typical ET curriculum is by far the most important piece that is typically missing. A particularly strong letter of reference or two from someone who would know what an engineering graduate program entails would go a lot way as well.
Applicants could probably apply to an university that offers conditional acceptance but necessarily non-degree. Another options is to see if the university would let the candidates make up the deficiencies. I know that New Jersey Institute of Technology offers something called a “bridge program” for students who earned a Bachelor of Science in Engineering Technology to take courses in addition to the degree requirements in order to make up deficiencies.
Or submit an application to a non-typical college for consideration. I guaranteed you that at least one college would accept applicants with a low GPA and with a ET degree in the U.S. I don’t mean colleges that are not accredited.
THANK YOU everybody!
This is a difficult situation and I appreciate all your advice.
To summarize:
take as many Math classes as possible
research (not sure how much research is done on that campus - it’s an open-enrollment directional but if it’s a university, it has to be done, right?)
professional certificates => can you elaborate on that? Even if they don’t hep directly with grad school, I’d imagine they help with finding internships and jobs?
Internships = what sort of positions or companies should she look into?
Yes, research would go a long way also. If the school can hire her as a laboratory technician or research assistant that would make her a stronger candidate for future positions. Writing publications on her research it also help her with getting her future position.
If she wants to become a successful environmental engineer, I would suggest working towards becoming a PE. A professional certificate that would help her with jobs, internships and employment would be the NCEES FE (Fundamentals of Engineering) Exam. It is not an easy exam but once she passes, she can begin using EIT (Engineer In Training) designation. Keep in mind that currently there are about 16 states that would not allow candidates to become PEs with an Engineering Technology degree along without coupling it with an advanced degree in Engineering to make it equivalent to the engineering standards. But it looks like it all is about to change because in an NCEES meeting the council voted to adopt a new NCEES position statement on future education requirement for Engineering Licensure.If that state won’t allow her to take the FE to become an EIT I would suggest her go to a nearby state that would allow her to take the FE exam.
There are also other credentials that young environmental engineer can pursue. Membership in professional societies is an excellent way to develop professional network and network with professionals in her field. Couple of relevant societies would be:
American Academy of Environmental Engineers - http://www.aaees.org/
National Association of Environmental Professionals - www.naep.org
Academy of Board Certified Environmental Professionals- www.abcep.org
Professional Certifications:
Erosion and Sediment Control Certification
Transferring into an engineering program as a junior is a much easier path. The transfer requirements for most engineering undergraduate programs are based on taking the core or “critical” tracking courses. These typically include the Calculus sequence, differential equations/linear algebra, a year of Physics (2 semesters) and a semester of Chemistry (and all of the associated labs).
She can take these classes while still pursuing an Engineering Technology degree, but it may require she take a more rigorous version of Calculus, Physics and/or Chemistry than what’s required for the technology degree (requirements can vary widely by program).
After their sophomore year, they can decide to transfer or stay to complete their degree. She should research schools that could be transfer targets and review their requirements.
See the problem with engineering degrees is that they have their own math and science classes this is just making people frustrated. If that is the case than I suggest they take the Calculus, Physics and Chemistry classes that is offered in the math and science departments. This simplify things a lot. Just ask your advisor for the equivalencies.
I know of no engineering program that has it’s own math and science classes. They pretty much all let the math department handle math, the physics department handle physics, the chemistry department handle chemistry, etc.
@IncorE206 said: “See the problem with engineering degrees is that they have their own math and science classes this is just making people frustrated.”
This varies from school to school. At my son’s school, engineers take the same math as math majors. There’s no such thing as engineering math classes.
Not in 2003 when Drexel University offered their TDEC engineering curriculums where engineering students took math and science classes at their own department. Then later choose to remove all the TDEC courses. There were even equivalencies from Community College that list transfer equivalencies for those courses. I am sure other schools still does the same thing.
Their ENGR 231 Linear Engineering Systems which taught in the engineering department is equivalent to “Linear Algebra” that is taken by math majors. The only difference is that ENGR 231 uses MatLab. Linear Algebra math majors take doesn’t have MatLab.
Another class ENGR 232 Dynamic Engineering Systems which is equivalent to differential equations but incorporated MatLab.
While there may be some exceptions, most engineering major bachelor’s degree programs use the same frosh/soph level math and physics courses that are allowed for math and physics majors.
It is common for some other majors like biology and business to allow special versions of less rigorous math and (for biology) physics courses. If engineering technology majors do that, then it is more of an issue with having a special less rigorous version for engineering technology majors, rather than having a special version for engineering majors.
Thanks for the ideas regarding classes and certificates.
The college is a directional that offers more classes before calculus than classes including calculus and above. The math major is mostly directed to teaching math and there’s no physics major.
She’s taken calculus 1-3 and Engineering physics 1-4 at a community college, exhausting their offerings. She’ll enter with advanced standing so I told her to keep taking the next classes in the math and physics sequence whenever they’re offered, starting with Differential Equations and whatever 300-level physics is offered.
It should also be noted that many programs will readily allow an exception when the substituted class covers more content than the required class. This allows people who are changing majors, taking harder courses for other purposes, and/or double-majoring to fulfill requirements without retaking too many classes.