<p>I'm not romanticizing engineering. But, IMO, the bigger ego, more aggressive Type A personalities are more prevalent in finance fields. It's the competitive nature of the business and big rewards that attract certain personalities...It's not an industry for everyone...just like engineering is not an industry for everyone.</p>
<p>What do you guys think of a IE degree + a Masters in buisness, is that an excellent combo if taken in a well know school?</p>
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Well, I would say that a lot of people do in fact like Ibanking, and not just masochists. Specifically, many people like the thrill of 'the deal' as well as the feeling of power. So they probably don't mind working 100 hours a week on something they like. The fact is, an Ibanking job can give you access to power that most other jobs, including engineering jobs, do not. {Let's face it, many entry-level engineering jobs are quite mundane.}
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<p>Analysts are in it for the "thrill of the deal"? That might be the reason they give - but really, what contact do they have in "selling" the product? The thrill of writing a pitchbook? That sounds pretty pedestrian to me - but then again, I have never written a pitchbook.</p>
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Analysts are in it for the "thrill of the deal"? That might be the reason they give - but really, what contact do they have in "selling" the product? The thrill of writing a pitchbook? That sounds pretty pedestrian to me - but then again, I have never written a pitchbook.
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<p>No, you write a good pitchbook, and you may be invited to the actual negotiation table. That's where things get interesting.</p>
<p>Look, we have to compare it to what happens in regular engineering jobs, which frankly, tend to be rather mundane, at least in the beginning. Let's be perfectly honest. Most engineers who are starting out don't really get to work on interesting projects. Most certainly don't have the opportunity to travel to any high-powered meeting, and more importantly, only a limited opportunity to move up.</p>
<p>If you still disagree, then fair enough, perhaps you could then explain why is it that so many students from the top engineering schools (MIT, Stanford, etc.) seem to prefer to take Ibanking jobs rather than engineering jobs. Are they just being dumb? Or is it perhaps simply more likely that engineering jobs are not so desirable for these kinds of people?</p>
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If you still disagree, then fair enough, perhaps you could then explain why is it that so many students from the top engineering schools (MIT, Stanford, etc.) seem to prefer to take Ibanking jobs rather than engineering jobs. Are they just being dumb? Or is it perhaps simply more likely that engineering jobs are not so desirable for these kinds of people?
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Money. Nothing related to the thrill of the deal.</p>
<p>^ I agree. It's money. If you had potential to make tons of money in a more staid engineering job, more would be attracted to it. Let's face it, Americans want it all but don't want to work very hard. Now, there are some that will work very hard for the reward...that's investment banking analysts.</p>
<p>And as entry-level analyst, especially from undergrad, you're dreaming that you'll be sitting in the board room presenting...you'll be in the NYC office making last minute changes to the presentation while the partner is freaking out or barking orders to the financial printing firm that messed up on the proxy statement...you have to earn your stripes, it's like a hazing ritual, before you get the glory.</p>
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Let's face it, Americans want it all but don't want to work very hard.
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<p>Compared to the Japanese, perhaps. But there are entire continents lazier than us.</p>
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Compared to the Japanese, perhaps. But there are entire continents lazier than us.
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<p>So true. Compared only to Asia would Americans be considered lazy. Hours worked shows we are anything but.</p>
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Money. Nothing related to the thrill of the deal.
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<p>You have pretty strong opinions for somebody who has never been in on a deal. </p>
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And as entry-level analyst, especially from undergrad, you're dreaming that you'll be sitting in the board room presenting...you'll be in the NYC office making last minute changes to the presentation while the partner is freaking out or barking orders to the financial printing firm that messed up on the proxy statement...you have to earn your stripes, it's like a hazing ritual, before you get the glory.
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<p>Sure, it's a hazing process before you get the glory. But hey, at least you get the chance for the glory. Let's be honest - most engineering jobs offer you no chance for glory, even if you do great work for years on end.</p>
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Sure, it's a hazing process before you get the glory. But hey, at least you get the chance for the glory. Let's be honest - most engineering jobs offer you no chance for glory, even if you do great work for years on end.
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<p>You have pretty strong opinions for somebody who has never been to a topping-out ceremony. ;)</p>
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You have pretty strong opinions for somebody who has never been to a topping-out ceremony.
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<p>Ha! Actually, I've held several jobs, some of which offered strong opportunities for glory, but the others, not so much.</p>
<p>Again, the real problem is that a lot of engineering companies just don't offer strong opportunities for career development. Many of them are, frankly, not meritocracies but rather are highly seniority-based where it doesn't really matter how good your work is, if you don't have the seniority, you're not going to get opportunities. Sad but true.</p>
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You have pretty strong opinions for somebody who has never been in on a deal.
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I've been a salesmen before. Both my parents are salesmen. I've had enough exposure to "deals". The same basic mechanics exist for most selling operations.</p>
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Again, the real problem is that a lot of engineering companies just don't offer strong opportunities for career development.
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<p>Yup! And that's one of the things people've gotta watch out for when they're job hunting. It may take a few rounds to get it right. Luckily, there are companies out there where there are some really great opportunities... I was a little surprised when my new company, first day on the job, handed me this really amazing elevated pedestrian walkway to work on, pretty much on my own. I'm being serious when I say it's the most complicated pedestrian walkway that has ever been designed... (If the Milennium Bridge folks had done <em>half</em> the analysis on their bridge that I've done on mine, they wouldn't have had any issues!) I'm going to get at least one journal article out of it, more than likely, which is really amazingly cool.</p>
<p>But that's what my company's like, and that's what I was looking for when I went job hunting again. I found a place where the leadership is really young, and where there are programs designed to teach everyone the management skills they need to advance. All the senior engineers here are either project managers or design managers... They either do traditional wrangle-the-client PM'ing, or, if they'd rather stay on the design side of things, they become design managers and are the gurus that all the newbies go and ask questions to, and are more like professors than project managers. Some of the folks are a little of both, and whichever side you choose (and you choose whichever side you go into, possibly with a little coaching if you're just spectacular at one or the other), you're paid the same. It's a pretty cool system.</p>
<p>Anyhow... There's glory to be had in engineering, just like there is in IB. Just gotta keep an eye out for the right places to work!</p>
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I've been a salesmen before. Both my parents are salesmen. I've had enough exposure to "deals". The same basic mechanics exist for most selling operations.
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<p>I too have also held positions in sales. So then I think we both know that there is quite a bit of excitement in closing deals. Surely your parents felt that thrill of closing.</p>
<p>And that's the point. Now, I agree that some (probably many) Ibankers truly do only care about the money and nothing else. But I also suspect that many of them are intrigued by the excitement of the deal. It's like sports, and they enjoy the feeling of winning. {Incidentally, I think this is one reason why so many Ibankers were former college athletes.}</p>
<p>o O (This entirely explains that there's a correlation between my hatred of selling girl scout cookies, my loathing of debate tournaments, and the fact that I only enjoyed, for example, pickup games of soccer, and not competitive sports in general...)</p>
<p>There have been numerous studies performed on why so many pro athletes continue to play well past their prime - sometimes even "unretiring" to do so - to the point of not only risking their legacy, but also sometimes their very health. Money was generally only a minor factor, as many of these athletes had already made enough money to be set for life. The strongest factor boiled down to a matter of psychology: that they enjoyed the thrill of competition too much and they just couldn't bear the thought of living a regular life in which they wouldn't be able to feel that thrill on a regular basis. </p>
<p>Similarly, I wonder why so many highly successful Ibankers who have already made far more money than they will ever need for the rest of their lives still continue to hold their jobs when they could very easily retire and enjoy life. If it's not the thrill of the deal that holds them, then I don't know what it is.</p>
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If it's not the thrill of the deal that holds them, then I don't know what it is.
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I think a lot of them are driven by MORE...no matter what more is...more fame, more deals, more money. A lot of it is a race...middle class trying to emulate upper class, upper class trying to emulate millionaires, millionaires trying to emulate billionaires, billionaires trying to emulate multi-billionaires...it's a large part of our society.</p>
<p>The drive comes from personality and work ethic.</p>
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I too have also held positions in sales. So then I think we both know that there is quite a bit of excitement in closing deals. Surely your parents felt that thrill of closing.</p>
<p>And that's the point. Now, I agree that some (probably many) Ibankers truly do only care about the money and nothing else. But I also suspect that many of them are intrigued by the excitement of the deal. It's like sports, and they enjoy the feeling of winning. {Incidentally, I think this is one reason why so many Ibankers were former college athletes.}
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The original question was framed as why people from top engineering schools go to Ibanking. The reason <em>they</em> go to IBanking is because of money. If the money was the same as engineering, I would imagine the glamor of Ibanking would be far less. The thrill of the deal is not enough to overcome the inevitable instability of sales occupations. The upside is always the money (or more precisely, the possibility of huge money).</p>
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o O (This entirely explains that there's a correlation between my hatred of selling girl scout cookies, my loathing of debate tournaments, and the fact that I only enjoyed, for example, pickup games of soccer, and not competitive sports in general...)
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Yeah, so like the exact opposite of me. :)</p>
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The original question was framed as why people from top engineering schools go to Ibanking. The reason <em>they</em> go to IBanking is because of money. If the money was the same as engineering, I would imagine the glamor of Ibanking would be far less. The thrill of the deal is not enough to overcome the inevitable instability of sales occupations. The upside is always the money (or more precisely, the possibility of huge money)
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<p>Nobody is denying that money is a factor. But conversely, if engineering jobs were simply made more interesting, then I also think the glamour of Ibanking would also decline. Like I said before, many (probably most) engineering jobs, especially at larger companies, are simply not very thrilling.</p>