Engineering?

Wasn’t sure where to put this. Out of nowhere, my STEM daughter is considering engineering (she’s a junior in HS). I think someone has been whispering in her ear about Science majors not having job prospects if medical school doesn’t work out.

I don’t know anything about engineering and I have a couple of questions. What is the difference between a Chemistry major and a Chemical Engineering major? Could either of these majors teach a HS Chemistry class (another out of the box idea she tossed out at the dinner table last week…again, out of nowhere. This is a kid who has wanted to be a doctor since 4th grade)?

Also, a school that is ABET accredited means it’s a solid program, right? One of the smaller schools she is looking at has a 3/2 engineering major now, but has started it’s own 4 year engineering program that is scheduled to be reviewed by ABET in 2020. She’d start in 2021. Is that something I should be wary of (because employers would be wary of it)? A brand new accreditation?

Also, would it be hard to test the waters in (for conversations sake) Chemistry and Chemical Engineering and then finalize that choice a little later in the college career? Which school would you apply to (arts and sciences or engineering) if this was your thought process? Is it generally easier to switch into engineering from arts and sciences or easier to switch into arts/sciences from engineering.

I can answer some of your easier questions.

It’s better to start in engineering. The class progression is more defined and would be harder to catch up with going the other way. For that same reason it’s better to apply to engineering from the beginning (there are also some schools where the specific major has a significant difference in acceptance percentage).

I’m not a fan of 3/2 programs because students frequently don’t follow through on them (their friends are still in the original school) or the +2 may not be automatic for acceptance.

IMO either could teach a Chem class in HS but that may depend on the state degree requirements.

I don’t believe the “newness” of ABET accreditation would be significant - programs wither have it or they don’t. Engineering is not a major that generally cares about high prestige undergrad degrees.

The reality is that eng is hard, so that makes GPA for med school so much harder. It really isn’t a fall back career for pre med drop outs. I would bet that many of the aspiring premeds that chose eng are also going to be eng drops. Start in engineering if that is what really excites her. Is she a top student?

The OP was comparing chemistry to chemical engineering. Is it really much harder to get a high GPA in chemical engineering than chemistry? Average or median GPA by major reports I have seen at multiple colleges do not suggest this. For example, one for Berkeley is at https://pages.github.berkeley.edu/OPA/our-berkeley/gpa-by-major.html and summarized below. I also listed some of the highest head count majors for comparison. Both majors have approximately the same ~3.35 average GPA, which is slightly lower than the average ~3.4 GPA for the full class. Instead I expect hard/easy to be more dependent on differences in individual students. Some students will find chemistry easier, and some will find chemical engineering easier. Note that Berkeley is known for harsh grading. Private colleges of comparable selectivity usually have notably higher average GPAs than below, with most students receiving A’s.

Berkeley Average GPA by Major: 2018-19
Business – 3.55
English – 3.51
Computer Science – 3.47
EECS – 3.43
Political Science – 3.39
Chemical Engineering – 3.36
Chemistry (BS) – 3.35
Sociology – 3.31
Integrative Biology – 3.30
Applied Mathematics – 3.19

Cognitive Science -- 3.17

Overall – 3.40

I think the bigger issue with chemical engineering + pre-med is that ABET engineering usually has a much higher number of required courses for the major than chemistry, leaving less electives for the pre-med requirements. It can be done. I did pre-med + electrical engineering. However, you’ll have relatively few additional electives besides major requirements + pre-med requirements + school requirements.

Engineering is a very hard degree, and if she wants to go into pre-med, she’s less likely going to get the type of GPA medical schools look for. I think a better fallback career would be nursing. A nursing degree will meet most pre-med requirements(might have to take a few extra courses) If she doesn’t get into medical school the first time, she will have some very practical medical experience to put on her resume the next year.

A famous quote from a legendary STEM figure:

A couple other notes from a site comparing the two

A Chemist will analyze, invent, refine, seek to better understand, research, and understand why the elements/chemicals/etc. in our world act the way they do and develop new ways for them to interact to make new things.

A Chemical Engineer typically designs large scale manufacturing and production processes that utilize those chemicals and chemical processes/interactions.

So a chemist determined how to manipulate, combine, and process various organic elements and chemicals into polymers with various properties. Chemical Engineers designed the huge multi-million dollar plants that take in raw materials and utilize those same chemical reaction and processes at a scale that can churn out millions of pounds of plastic that are used to make things.

Thanks for everyone’s feedback. If she chooses engineering, I think she will be making the decision to not go to medical school.

Here’s the situation that prompted all of this -

She is having the time of her life in AP Chemistry. She loves the labs and just loves the class in general. It’s not that she doesn’t want to be a doctor anymore, but she’s loving being in the lab and doing experiments, and as she calls it - “doing science”

She says she really could see herself in a lab doing experiments for the rest of her life; or maybe teaching HS Chemistry.

I don’t even know if Engineers work in labs. I truly know nothing about engineering (I was a PPE major and went to law school). I just know when I was discussing this with someone else, they said - bachelors in Chemical Engineering is employable, bachelors in Chemistry is not so much.

She actually never mentioned Chemical Engineering; she mentioned Biomedical Engineering; probably because she wears medical equipment 24/7 (insulin pump and continuous glucose monitor) and knows how life changing it can be.

It’s easier to go from Chem Eng → Chemistry major than the other way around, because the engineering curriculum is tightly sequenced. If she is later interested in teaching high school, she will need to add the education sequence of courses - requirements vary by state. A good thing about the education path is that the GPA will still be reasonable enough to apply for med school, assuming she does well in her science classes. In our state of NJ, there’s always demand for math,physics and chem high school teachers; not so much for bio.

Bachelor’s in chemistry is fine for a high school teacher goal in most states (should review teaching requirements in target states), as well as some types of research/lab assistant positions. However, these are all positions associated with lower earnings. Higher salary positions are associated with higher level degrees beyond bachelor’s. In contrast, chemical engineering is associated with higher salary positions with just a bachelor’s. Some specific numbers from Cornell are below.

Chemical Engineering Major – https://www.engineering.cornell.edu/industry-partners/enrollment-statistics-and-post-graduate-data/post-graduate-survey-and-reports
95% employed or grad school, 4% seeking employment
Common employment sectors = Manufacturing and Pharma
Median starting salary = $73k

Chemistry Major – https://as.cornell.edu/chemistry-chemical-biology-major
92% employed or grad school, 4% seeking employment
Common employment sectors = Education, Pharma, and Non-profit
Median starting salary ~= $31k (estimated*)
*Median earnings among students at Ivies receiving federal aid, as listed on CollegeScorecard .

If she is interested in biomedical engineering and not chemical engineering, why not mention biomedical engineering in the initial post? If the thought process is that a chemical engineering degree will make her more employable as a high school chemistry teacher or chemist lab researcher than a chemistry degree, that is generally not correct.

Also if she’s interested in biomedical engineering. It is typically viewed as better to attain at a graduate level - not undergraduate as there are few job opportunities for bachelors of biomedical engineering.

I didn’t mention it because I don’t think it’s exclusively what she’s thinking. It’s just one of the things she mentioned. I’m really in a very unfamiliar place. I’m not a STEM person in general, but engineering is WAY outside my comfort zone. I had in my head that chemical, electrical, biomedical engineering are to Engineering as English Lit or Comparative Lit are to English.

I have a high school junior very interested in chemistry, but was concerned about job prospects so had researched this a bit (I was an engineer and my wife is a PhD biochemist). I found the youtube series by “Majorprep” to be very good at describing majors and careers in the sciences and engineering. I recommend the one entitled “What is Chemical Engineering” to be very helpful in comparing chemistry to chemical engineering, particularly starting at 6:37 of that video. Google “youtube majorprep what is chemical engineering”

My personal conclusion was that my son would likely not enjoy being a chemical engineer, but your mileage may vary. It seemed to me that chemical engineering was more closely related to mechanical engineering than chemistry. It seemed to apply mechanical engineering principles to chemical applications, but that’s just my take.

I was hoping chemical engineering would be closer to chemistry because it does appear that job prospects are more promising for a BS degree for chemical engineers than for a BS in chemistry. My wife certainly has noticed limited career opportunities with just a BS in chemistry throughout her career.

My D is a chem e at Purdue. She originally thought she wanted to do R&D for a pharmaceutical company. That has shifted for her as she’s gotten more into her major but certainly there are many chem es that work in R&D/lab settings.

She only knows one person in her major who is pre-med and she’s brilliant. She is needing to use most of her electives to fulfill her pre-med requirements.

I agree with what has already been said about applying to engineering if it’s on the radar. Much easier to transfer out of engineering than in.

I would recommend that your D look closely at the four year plan of study to compare chemistry vs chem e majors courses.

For my D, there was a common first year engineering curriculum - engineering design, physics, calc, general chem, and her english requirement. She transitioned into her major this year as a sophomore. Really the only overlap for her now with chemistry majors is o chem and p chem. She has a lot more math, physics, thermo, etc… She has less gen ed requirements - no foreign language, less english, no humanities, etc…

The good news is your D is figuring this out now so has some time to explore.

Gosh, I hope so. A Chem E major AND a pre-med. Sheesh, talk about a difficult path. Aye Caramba! :scream:

Chemical, electrical, and biomedical engineering are all different fields that take a different set of major specific courses. Engineering companies who hire new grads for engineering specific positions often expect students to learn key skills in these major specific courses, so they often need electrical major and not chemical major or vice versa. For example, I majored in electrical engineering and work in a related field. It would be quite rare (rare enough that I’ve never heard of it happening) for a chemical or biomedical engineer to be considered for a position in my subfield. Instead they’d typically apply for a different type of engineering position that more directly relates to their major.

Cross over between majors is more common in positions outside of engineering. For example, a small portion of both electrical or chemical engineering majors might choose to initially work in finance or consulting, rather than engineering.

The classes required for a chemical engineering major typically fulfill the pre-med lecture course requirements for calculus, chemistry, and physics. University general requirements would likely fulfill English. This leaves biology, which will not be fulfilled by chemical engineering major requirements and will need to be taken as an elective. An intro statistics class would also be a good idea, if not part of the required major classes. Labs also are sometimes not required for chemical engineering major, but are for pre-med. Pre-med is a significant addition beyond a standard chemical engineering major, particularly with using electives for a year of intro biology, but I’d consider it a practical addition.

A chemistry major would likely have similar overlap with pre-med and need to use electives for intro bio, just like the chemical engineering major. The difference is the chemistry major has fewer major specific classes required beyond the pre-med classes than the chemical engineering major.

I expect the rarity of chemical engineering + pre-med primarily relates to typical pre-meds favoring the more common major path, with fewer additional classes required beyond pre-med classes. Pre-meds and engineers also often have different personalities and interests. I doubt that the typical pre-med would want to be an engineer, if med school didn’t work out. The few pre-meds who do choose engineering majors tend to have good outcomes, with a high rate of med school acceptances, as well as high GPA + score stats. It’s been awhile since the AAMC published MCAT scores by major. Back when they did several years ago, the MCAT scores by major were as follows:

Biological Sciences MCAT Score by Major
Biomedical Engineering: 10.6
Electrical Engineering: 10.1
Chemistry: 10.0
Biology: 9.7
Pre-medical: 8.9

Physical Sciences MCAT Score by Major
Biomedical Engineering: 11.1
Electrical Engineering: 10.9
Chemistry: 9.5
Biology: 9.0
Pre-medical: 8.5

Verbal Reasoning MCAT Score by Major
Biomedical Engineering: 9.6
Electrical Engineering: 9.4
Chemistry: 9.0
Biology: 8.7
Pre-medical: 8.1

ABET is a minimum standard for engineering. With few exceptions, I wouldn’t go to a program that isn’t ABET accredited if I had any intention of being an engineer vs a doctor. Usually, the lack of ABET accreditation means a program is terrible or it’s a new major. I say usually because a few of the top programs like Stanford choose not to get ABET accreditation.

Yes, that’s what I was thinking. My daughter is intrigued by Elon in North Carolina. It might be too small for her, but otherwise it looks very nice. She was wowed by the rep they sent to her high school and I have to admit that he left a great impression on me as well after I chatted with him at a college fair. But that was before she ever mentioned engineering.

They’ve had a 3/2 program forever with larger schools in the surrounding states, but have just (began fall of 2018) started a four year stand alone/don’t have to transfer engineering program. It is set to be reviewed for accreditation by ABET in 2020. So, hopefully it will be accredited by fall of 2021. Even if it is accredited, I’m sure it will be tiny. I don’t know if that matters.

I’m wondering if I should just say - if it comes down to Elon being your favorite, then you should choose between Biology, Chemistry or Math - stay away from engineering.

I’d suggest letting her choose her own major, based on her interests and desired career path. These interests will likely change while in college, as she gains more exposure to new fields, including fields that she has never studied while in high school. Feel free to provide information to help her make an informed choice, but don’t just say “choose between majors x, y, or z; and stay away from engineering”, without explanation.

I expect Elon engineers generally do fine compared to life science majors, likely with higher salary averages and lower unemployment than Elon grads who do a terminal BS degree in biology or chemistry. However, I’d also expect a large portion of Elon engineers work in non-engineering quant fields, rather than traditional engineering specific jobs There are many possible career options for engineering majors. While Elon engineers likely have a higher starting salary than life science majors, that does not mean Elon is a good choice for students interested in engineering. If engineering is a primary interest, she’ll likely have more engineering opportunities at other colleges that have a larger engineering presence and longer history than Elon, including a larger number of engineering companies recruiting at career fairs for engineering positions and such. Most Elon students seem to come to a similar conclusion. In the most recent CollegeNavigator class, only 5 students majored in engineering fields (not counting applied physics as engineering).

If med school is the primary goal, you can major in almost anything, so long as you complete the pre-med requirements. English, foreign language, exercise science, … could all good majors for pre-meds… or whatever new field(s) she discovers while in college. It doesn’t have to be just majors x, y, or z.

Med school acceptance is mainly based on MCAT and GPA. The best major may be whatever she’s interested in and can get the highest GPA in , while meeting the med school prereqs. If there was real interest in engineering, as something other than a plan B in case med school doesn’t work out, then Elon may not be the best school for her.