Engineers, what do you think of my college list?

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>The game is fairly different now. You can thank USNWR for that. Schools are not content simply saying what they are and letting the student decide if it’s a good match or not. Every photo is perfect. The verbiage, ethereal. All traces of anything that could possibly be construed as negative, omitted. Thus, wading through all of the available online information can be overwhelming. Couple that with the hyperacute focus on rankings and it’s no wonder kids (and adults, me included) are seeking the validation of completely random strangers on the Internet.</p>

<p>Now, what I haven’t made clear yet, is that not all visits are created equally. The general campus tour can be as useless as the information available online. They have become generic too. “Our last admitted class was perfect, but we evaluate wholisticly so you don’t have to be.” “We have 45,000 on campus clubs, but if we don’t have yours, you can start one, with school funding.” “We do study abroad in all UN recognized countries and bodies currently recognized as planets in our solar system.” “Dorms? You talkin’ to me? Let’s go to the climbing wall.”</p>

<p>A worthwhile visit must include a departmental tour and visits with students and profs. Ideally, the student interactions will be random, “hey, do you mind if I ask you a question,” sorts of exchanges. It’s not that hard to do. It just requires good planning and being willing to ask for something that might not be regularly scheduled.</p>

<p>Most importantly, you get a personal sense of how happy the students are on campus. At the end of the day, that’s really the thing seekers want to know, “Will I be happy here?”</p>

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<p>I swear I was on that tour!! ;-)</p>

<p>The thing I liked to do on tours was to walk up to a couple/few students just hanging out and asking if they had the time for a question or two. I never had any say no. I’d ask their major and ask them for their top five “likes” and top five “dislikes” for the school. I’d never approach a single student, always two or three. Never more than that.</p>

<p>Then I’d head out to the career development office, an appointment I’d always make in advance, to have an in depth conversation about jobs. ;-)</p>

<p>My son was always in tow. He wanted the info too, but he’s on the quiet side. :-\ Sometimes the parent needs to step up for their kid. IMHO, this isn’t the time to teach them to engage. This is the time to engage together and make sure the information is gathered. It’s too important.</p>

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<p>Well, I do industrial research and I actually need to hire new grads who have learned material to great depth, and after doing this for a long time, you start to see students from the same schools acing the interviews and some students who are obviously smart but haven’t been. You see the projects they do, and some are really impressive, and some are really not impressive, though the students are led to believe by their schools that these projects are impressive. You wonder what these obviously smart students could have been in a more rigorous program. </p>

<p>The question that you want to be asking is what is the standard of excellence, and how excellent is it. </p>

<p>If the point of view of an MIT PhD engineering manager who recruits for his own high end group is “weak”, well, I don’t know what to tell you. You can beat me up all you want, but obviously I think that my opinions have some validity. Feel free to disagree and use your own metrics. </p>

<p>It’s true though, that you need to do some of your own research and make your own decisions.</p>

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<p>ClassicRockerDad, </p>

<p>As opposed to the rest of us… who can hire anyone? In this day and age, we all need to hire quality people.</p>

<p>I tried not to engage, but the OP didn’t get what I was trying to say at first, so I had to just be blunt about it. </p>

<p>I’m sorry, but your comments on these schools seemed very subjective and full of bias. When you were challenged, your answers were, at best, weak. Telephone calls, talks with deans… The idea that you would be able to gather this kind of negative intel from these sources flew in the face of logic and my own personal experience in the exact same venues.</p>

<p>Now your story is focused exclusively on personal experience interviewing graduates. </p>

<p>And you are an MIT PhD?.. huh? … :-/ You can either defend your positions with solid reasoning or you can’t.</p>

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<p>Subjective absolutely. </p>

<p>Biased, I don’t know where you get that. It’s ALL anecdotal. That’s all anyone can go on. I see what I see. Trends start to emerge. I draw conclusions from those trends to the best of my ability. I’ve seen stuff I’d want to know about when I was looking for schools. You obviously have a different experience, which is no more or less valid than mine. </p>

<p>I’m not sure what you are looking for. If I haven’t been helpful, people shouldn’t take my advice. Some people thank me. YMMV.</p>

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<p>Maybe have one less espresso tomorrow maikai… Seems like you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.</p>

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<p>ClassicRockerDad,</p>

<p>Bias = prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.</p>

<p>While it’s true you poisoned a couple of good schools with plain old subjective opinion, I feel you went beyond subjective opinion and showed a true bias by the things you said against both Lafayette and Stevens. </p>

<p>While Lafayette is a liberal arts college, it still has a strong engineering school and offers a flexibility in curriculum and diversity in student body other schools just can’t touch. </p>

<p>Stevens is three peas in a pod with RPI and Lehigh, two schools you admire. And they enjoy government contracts, which also impress you, from several agencies including the DOD and DOT. Not to mention it’s fantastic location. And not to mention Stevens ranks #5 in the nation for alumni salary out of all engineering schools in this nation. But don’t start me on rankings… I’m no fan of any of them.</p>

<p>Lafayette and Stevens are two colleges that should be seriously considered by the OP, but he’s not… because of you. You threw them both under the bus, then had the bus back up over their broken bodies. :-/</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, Lafayette does not. The engineering program is very prescribed. The ability to take liberal arts courses is limited. The myth of an engineering degree within the classic structure of liberal arts at Lafayette, and for that matter Bucknell, is just that, a myth. In fact, an engineering student can take more liberal arts and do a better study abroad at WPI than either Lafayette or Bucknell. It’s best to think of them as engineering adjacent to liberal arts and not within liberal arts. This was straight from the head of admissions at Lafayette and an admissions officer at Bucknell. The reply from both can be summed up in their reply, “Well, engineering is different.”</p>

<p>Now that’s not to say that Lafayette and Bucknell are bad engineering schools, but take away the liberal arts twist (which doesn’t really exist and neither can really compare with their regional companion Lehigh.</p>

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<p>That was not the take-away we got when we visited Lafayette, but then we only visited Lafayette because we were visiting Lehigh, so perhaps they were giving us their best counter-Lehigh pitch. :wink: </p>

<p>Also, Lafayette engineers seem to have a very nice reputation in Eastern PA (my subjective observations). </p>

<p>I also liked the diversity on campus. The student body was quite different from any STEM school you would go to. And it was a beautiful campus.</p>

<p>There is definitely a rivalry between Lafayette and Lehigh. Lafayette yields to Lehigh very quickly and we saw one student on campus even sporting a tee shirt saying “Lafayette” on the front and “…because I couldn’t get into Lehigh” on the back. ;-)</p>

<p>I would favor Lehigh over Lafayette, minus the disdain. There are clearly things Lafayette has to offer. If my son had any doubt about his direction, attending a LAC, where there would be a wide variety of alternative majors to choose from, would have been more appealing. </p>

<p>I favor Lehigh over Lafayette, but do not believe one’s career would be impacted significantly if a kid went to one or the other. IMHO, the fit of the student would make up for the differences.</p>

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<p>Engineering degree programs typically contain about 45-50% liberal arts courses (about 25% math and science and 20-25% humanities and social studies breadth), although there may be less elective choice within these categories (particularly in the math and science) due to specific prerequisite requirements.</p>

<p>It is, however, generally a mistake to assume that a liberal arts college necessarily requires or encourages students to take more breadth courses outside of his/her major; indeed, some of the best known open curriculum schools with no breadth requirements are liberal arts colleges. Also, liberal arts colleges should not be assumed to offer a wider choice of courses and majors; indeed, many are small enough that the small size imposes a limitation here.</p>

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<p>We visited many of the schools on your list. GWU was dropped immediately from consideration. Of the 15 tour guides that introduced themselves, 0 were science or engineering majors. The strength of the school is political science, IR, history. Engineering is an afterthought. The tour of the engineering building confirmed it. The labs were pitiful. Yes, they are aware of it and are trying to fix it buy building a new building and other initiatives (you can read their strategic plan) etc. But it isn’t as good for engineering as most of the others on your list. If you were in love with Washington D.C. then perhaps you might make that compromise.
Lafayette - my son loved the campus and smaller school atmosphere, but had to admit that the engineering program/department was just too small and limited in offerings. He applied and got in (Bucknell as well), but turned them down in favor of WPI.
If you like the intellectual richness and academic diversity of small research universities, Tufts and U. Rochester are great choices. Tufts has a much better location though. All of my Tufts engineering grad friends are very successful in their careers despite not being as hard-core as the MIT grads down the street. My son’s final decision came down to Tufts and WPI over RPI, Bucknell, Lafayette, Case Western, UMass, and a few others I can’t remember (waitlisted at CMU).</p>

<p>Have you considered Case Western?
Engineering schools come in different “flavors” and you need to visit and evaluate carefully to choose the type that you will enjoy the most.</p>

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<p>LOL! My are we a bit dramatic. You are entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. I don’t have a lot of reason to have respect for Lafayette and Stevens. They just don’t impress me. I can’t see why a future engineer would knowingly go to these schools when there are so many better options. Stevens is not in the same league as Lehigh and RPI. </p>

<p>For Stevens, look at the electrical engineering curriculum.
[Curriculum</a> | Stevens Schaefer School of Engineering and Science](<a href=“http://stevens.edu/ses/ece/undergrad/curriculum]Curriculum”>http://stevens.edu/ses/ece/undergrad/curriculum)</p>

<p>Why does an EE program require all three of Mechanics of Solids, Thermodynamics, Materials Processing, etc. So much of the curriculum seems like just filler. They teach what the professors there know how to teach. There are many more requirements than necessary because they don’t have sufficient breadth. </p>

<p>Compare this with EE at Lehigh and RPI which have so many more options to tailor your curriculum to your interests. Why would you consider Stevens a substitute.</p>

<p><a href=“Electrical Engineering and Engineering Physics < Lehigh University”>Electrical Engineering and Engineering Physics < Lehigh University;

<p><a href=“http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/advising/[/url]”>http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/advising/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>(Apparently I need a few more iterations of rolling the bus over Stevens to do it justice).</p>

<p>Lafayette is a beautiful campus. FWIW (which isn’t much in my opinion).</p>

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<p>Holy cow, that is a really crappy EE curriculum…</p>

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<p>BTG, that’s interesting. My son’s final east coast choices were WPI and Tufts, with Lehigh trailing. In the end he decided to apply just to WPI (along with schools in the west). Our EFC would make Tufts a quarter of a million and he didn’t feel like the overall experience would be better than WPI even taking location into account. He’ll likely get good merit aid at WPI. Neither WPI or Tufts are schools that peak the meter when engineering is mentioned, but they beat out all the rest on the opposite coast for my son and he considered most of them.</p>

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<p>eyemgh - Tufts versus WPI is actually a funny choice because they are so different. Small university where engineering is small percentage of the student body versus a STEM school with a very nerdy vibe. My son could see the pros and cons of each type,but ultimately the nerdier environment of WPI just appealed to him more. And the merit money from WPI also helped the decision along ;)</p>

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<p>Couldn’t agree more, but the vibe of each spoke to him. It really seemed like everyone around both schools looked and acted happy to be there. </p>

<p>It just goes to show how unique every individual’s “fit” can be and that if done right, may buck the rankings and still lead to very happy, well qualified graduates.</p>

<p>I bristle at the “you can put up with anything for four years” comments when trying to justify a ranked school that otherwise is a poor fit.</p>

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<p>I agree that for many students both Tufts and WPI can be good choices that will keep them happy in STEM without breaking them. They are very different, but they are both moderate. Some schools can be really harsh, and rigor isn’t always the most important thing. I think happiness comes first. </p>

<p>I think I’m often misunderstood. From the point of view of a parent with a student going in, I think a less harsh school might be just the ticket for certain kids who benefit from the moderation and the chance to digest. However, as a recruiter for highly technical positions, I can’t help but be impressed with those who excel in the face of the brutality. I get to just see the survivors - the ones that didn’t break. They’ve often learned more and just have more capability after 4 (or 5 or 6) years after having paid a heavy price. I also know that plenty of kids dropped out of engineering along the way, and I feel bad for those kids. They would have probably been better off with the moderation and the support. </p>

<p>Also to be clear, it’s not the school’s selectivity that matters, it’s the pace and the expectations that can make it really harsh. There are harsh options and more moderate options at many selectivity levels. </p>

<p>I think a student like the OP needs to ask themselves how much pain they can and want to handle and choose appropriately. Visiting and feeling the vibe is crucial. </p>

<p>What I don’t like are the schools that I feel don’t offer enough opportunity like the LACs (Lafayette, Union, Trinity) and Stevens. I think that students at these schools face too many limitations.</p>

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<p>ClassicRockerDad,</p>

<p>We can argue all day about what courses should be included in EE. I’m a very senior guy with a major semiconductor player and therefore get a perspective on most fields of electrical. It seems to me the Stevens course load is no better or worse than Lehigh or RPI.</p>

<p>You’re trying to hide in the minutia. </p>

<p>Stevens enjoys one of the very highest placement/hiring rates in the engineering community. Hiring percentages beat both Lehigh and RPI… especially RPI. These numbers come right from the career development offices of all three colleges. No ranking systems involved here.</p>

<p>Explain that.</p>

<p>They are also ranked 5th highest salary mean out of <em>ALL</em> engineering schools in this nation.</p>

<p>Explain that. </p>

<p>So puh-leeze. At this point you’re just blindly reaching for straws. Searching for any difference and calling it cancer. You poisoned a bunch of schools for the OP you never should have. In my humble opinion, one should not act so impetuously when a child asks for help. </p>

<p>You contradict yourself. You did so in your explanations when initially challenged. You indignantly questioned why I called your statements biased, but when outlined for you, you not only show bias, you personify it. :wink: Where is that indignation over “bias” now?</p>

<p>All I can say is “Wow!” If asked before reading this thread, I would have said an MIT PhD might answer in a thoughtful, even, caring and intelligent manner… especially considering a child was asking for the help. Silly me. Instead, we get a tirade of subjective opinions and biases… and a hell bent for leather attitude to defend whatever was said… any way possible… reaching for straws. The actual truth and tangible results of these institutions be damned.</p>

<p>And my, my, my, what do we have here?.. an attempt to soften the image. At least I can say “good going” for one tiny concession on your part.

This was my point from the very beginning. The fit and happiness of the OP in his eventual school of choice will make or break his career. The quality difference between most of these schools is mostly minor and, regardless of your rash assessments, does not outweigh fit.</p>

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<p>LOL! Now you’re way out there and you are doing a disservice to people. </p>

<p>Find another EE curriculum that doesn’t even touch electromagnetics beyond what you learn in HS AP physics. What happens to circuits at high frequencies where the wavelength approaches the size of the circuit? If you know you probably didn’t go to Stevens! Can you use the differential forms of Maxwell’s equations to solve field and wave problems. If so you didn’t go to Stevens. </p>

<p>Even the EE courses they do offer seem very narrow and not foundational. Look at the Microprocessor course. The Microprocessor course is probably something the same guy has been teaching the same way for 30 years.</p>

<p>The whole curriculum seems like a random bag of “stuff”. </p>

<p>Your definition of bias is based on being unfair. I don’t think I’m being unfair.</p>

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<p>Maybe they are lying. Fraud is no stranger to Stevens.
<a href=“http://www.nj.gov/oag/newsreleases09/pr20090917a.html[/url]”>http://www.nj.gov/oag/newsreleases09/pr20090917a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Or maybe their grads go into finance just to stay in NYC.</p>

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<p><em>hands Maikai a shovel</em></p>