European School Student

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hi there,</p>

<p>My name is Tim, I'm 18 years old and I currently live in Brussels, Belgium [International Student]. This is my last year of school and I've decided to apply to a US University. My intended major is Computer Science. After "some" research, I've decided to apply to 4 different universities :</p>

<p>University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
University of Wisconsin - Madison
University of Texas Austin
Purdue University - West Lafayette</p>

<p>My scores (I'm registered to take the SAT twice in Octobre and November of this years) will be around 800 for each subject (average score with multiple SAT Training Test in different books).</p>

<p>Now, my first question is :
[ol]
[li]Did I apply to enough universities? I see that a lot of International Student are applying to 10+ universities, but they choose lots of universities where they don't have any chances to enter (Stanford, Berkeley...). Do you think I should apply to Stanford (even though I may only have 7% chances to be accepted there) and some more universities with lower SAT grades so that I've more chances to get in one of them?</p>[/li]
<p>My second questions is:
[li]Do you think I've "good" chances being accepted at those universities?</p>[/li]
<p>My third question is:
[li]I hope somebody will be able to understand what I'm talking about. I'm currently studying at the European School of Brussels 2 (best school in Belgium and in the top 10 of Europe) (Ecole</a> europenne). The level of languages (we have more than 4 hours of English Learning courses per week and courses such as Geography (4 hours per week) and History (2 hours per week) that are also entirely in English.) is very high in the European School (we are reputed for that...). I've heard many students from my school were told that taking the TOEFL is not compulsory but I cannot verify this information since there is only one "mentor" in my school for US applications and he is on vacation. I would need to wait until september to ask him that, but that's just a waste of time...[/li]So, if someone knows something about students from the European School taking/not taking the TOEFL... it would be nice to know :)</p>

<p>I'm going to call those 4 universities and ask them about the TOEFL, but I just want to see if someone knows that, here on College Confidential.</p>

<p>[/ol]</p>

2

<p>Tim, for starters, it is impossible for anyone to evaluate your chances at the schools you listed. There are many factors that will play a role. </p>

<p>The first step for you will be to establish how your grades will be viewed in the US. Have you discussed with your guidance counselor how well other students from your school fared in the past? With the well-deserved reputation for tough grading practices in Belgium, it will important to have your school clearly establish the grading policies. There is a world of difference between A students in the United States and abroad. </p>

<p>Is your diploma a recognized Belgian degree or an International equivalent? If your school is part of the recognized system, you should have few problems. </p>

<p>With that information in hand, you should contact the schools and inquire about the requirements for students from Europe. This is also where you will have an official response to your TOEFL exam. Also take the time to google the “name of the school + Common Data Set” for detailed information on the past applications cycles. The schools you listed have different rates of admissions.</p>

<p>Regarding your SAT, please note that the practice tests are not always great indicators. Did you take official tests from The College Board? Make sure to practice with a few OFFICIAL tests published by TCB and ascertain your level. If you still score in the same range, you might not need to register for the November test. Of course, if money is not an issue, you may keep that second registration. Check the SAT forum on this site for additional information. </p>

<p>Last but not least, continue to poke around this site. You will find plenty of answers to the many questions that will come up in the next weeks.</p>

3

<p>[First-Time</a> Students | International Undergraduate | Be a Longhorn](<a href=“http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/international/first-time/]First-Time”>http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/international/first-time/)</p>

<p>[Testing</a> | International Undergraduate | Be a Longhorn](<a href=“http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/international/first-time/testing/]Testing”>http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/international/first-time/testing/)</p>

<p>When applying for admission as a first-time international undergraduate, you must submit </p>

<p>Official scores for the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) or the ACT Assessment (ACT) and
Official scores for the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) or the Academic Examination of the International English Language Testing System (IELTS) scores</p>

4

<p>First, I would like to know why you are interested in applying to a US University for UNDERGRADUATE study. All the schools you listed will cost you from $150,000 to $200,000 for 4 years of study. You will get no financial aid and cannot get access to student loans. You will also be severely restricted in regards to any jobs on or outside campus as a non-resident. So, unless your family is really wealthy it is hard for me to see why you would forgo an essentially free undergraduate education in Europe. </p>

<p>My personal advice, save your money and apply to the US for GRADUATE school. That’s what I did. While some of the schools you listed have large international student populations, especially, UW and UIUC, they are mostly graduate students. None of the schools have more than 5% undergraduate internationals and the vast majority are from Asia, especially China and India, where admission to local universities is extremely competitive. The number of European undergrads is minuscule.</p>

<p>If despite the high cost and lack of any clear benefit you still want to proceed, I would not pick the schools you listed.</p>

<p>If you are a highly qualified applicant,
a) Have scored well on the International Baccalaureate. Nobody cares about your high school but the IB is highly valued.
b) Can get a high score on the SAT. I don’t believe for a second you will score anywhere near a 2400 on the SAT, but let’s assume you can get 2200+.</p>

<p>Then you have a decent shot at admission to a top 50 private university.</p>

<p>For about the same cost as the non-resident tuition at a state college you will get a far better deal for your money and probably better odds of admission.</p>

<p>A number of US colleges will also give a full year of credit to students with the IB, so you can enroll as a sophomore and save $40-50,000. </p>

<p>I am thinking of colleges such as U. Chicago, Duke, Vanderbilt, USC, Notre Dame, Emory, Northwestern, Washington University, Rice, Carnegie Mellon, possibly Dartmouth or Cornell.</p>

<p>If you are willing to expand your horizons to smaller liberal arts colleges, you will have an even greater pool, although these are generally unknown and undervalued in Europe. </p>

<p>I would not bet on HYPSM as admission rates or internationals hover around 2-5% so unless you won a Gold Medal in a math Olympiad I would forget them. </p>

<p>Even though private colleges only take around 5-7% internationals, they do actively recruit internationally. At least coming from Europe you would not face the insane competition of applicants from China or India. The private schools like to have some diversity in the international pool and they don’t go strictly by numbers. These schools generally get few EU applicants, but they would like more of them. They will also like the fact you will not deplete their financial aid budgets as they don’t give aid to internationals. (Unless they really, really want you and offer you a scholarship!). </p>

<p>You WILL need to take the TOEFL if English is not your first language, but it is a very easy test.</p>

<p>If you go through the trouble of taking the SAT and TOEFL I would definitely apply to more than 4 schools: more like 10 to 15. Your odds are long everywhere so increase your chances of getting at least a few offers by applying broadly. I would pick mostly private Us, a few state schools and a few LACs. Among public universities, Michigan would probably be on top of my list as they take far more non-residents than other state universities. Among LACs, Harvey Mudd in California is by far the most tech oriented. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

5

<p>Xiggi, </p>

<p>I really don’t know our grading policies, I’ll try to see if I can get some information this week ! One important thing I forgot to mention is that the European School as an International Degree diploma, which is great for students willing to study abroad.</p>

<p>Thanks for the tip about the Common Data Set. And yes, I did take some official tests from The College Board. Same grades as always. Always around 1800 (Total). </p>

<p>I’m still going to register for the November test, we never know what can happen on the first test (too much stress, etc.). It’s my safety net :)</p>

<p>Thanks for your time ! Your post was just perfect !</p>

<p>Tim</p>

6

<p>Cedardweller, perhaps you might not be aware of this, but the IB diploma is viewed quite differently in Belgium as people are much more aware of its origin and purpose. To this date, it is still mostly used in schools that are offering programs to students who are academic nomads, might have lost grounds, and would be unable to maintain a similar grade in the more advanced academic system of Belgium. </p>

<p>Most of the schools that were (or are) known to offer the IB program in Belgium were considered private schools, and that is also a term that has a different connotation than in the US. Although a number of those International schools have gained a reasonable reputation in the expat community, they are rarely considered among the best schools in Belgium. This said, the changes introduced in Europe to create more common grounds among the European nations have injected more life into those type of schools.</p>

7

<p>It is true, I am not familiar specifically with schools in Belgium, although the situation you describe is similar to that in France, where the IB never achieved the status of the French Baccalaureate. The IB was long the weak second cousin of the French Bac for those (mostly expats or foreign residents) who simply wren’t adequately prepared for the French Bac. Few students ever failed the IB. </p>

<p>France has since introduced the OIB, (Option International du Baccalaureat) which is unrelated to the IB but provides extra coursework mostly in literature, history and foreign languages beyond the French Bac requirements. The OIB unlike the IB is highly valued both in France and internationally. I surmise the international degree Tim is referring to is somewhat similar to the OIB. </p>

<p>My main point is that few US colleges and universities are familiar with the French OIB of the Belgian equivalent while they generally are with the IB. Private colleges and LACs are more likely to give full credit to applicants with these degrees than public universities. I know of a student who took the OIB a few years ago and was admitted to Harvard with sophomore status. </p>

<p>One option would be for Tim to get an accreditation agency to review his diploma and establish an equivalency in terms of US education i.e. IB or better.</p>

8

<p>Yes, I agree. I think Tim will find a number of answers via his UCAS contact.</p>

9

<p>Cellardweller, thanks for your post. I questioned myself a lot about what you said… “Is it worth it?”, “Can’t I just study in Europe?”. Thanks for sharing you experience and opinion here on this topic.</p>

<p>So here you go:</p>

<p>Why do I want to study in the US since I can access an essentially free undergraduate education in Europe? It may sound weird to you, but I doesn’t to me. Many of my friends who are studying in Belgium/France/England are having troubles getting trough the first and second year. For example, there was 11 students of my school studying Medicine in ULB (University of Brussels), they all failed their first year because it was <em>too difficult</em>.
Colleges in Belgium are good, but students don’t study because they like what they do, but just because they have to study what they do. You should see students after their class… going to a good old bar on the campus. I mean, yeah… who does not want to go to a bar after each class? Hanging out with friends doing nothing.
I don’t want that, I want to be able to study. I want to love what I am doing and be one of the best at it (beautiful dream isn’t it?). And don’t say I don’t know what I’m talking about, my school is less than 1 mile from the university campus. I know exactly what is going on there.</p>

<p>I also understand that there aren’t much international undergraduate students in those public universities. You know what, I don’t want to be around 20 french guys. If I can have 2-3 french friends on the campus, that’s OK for me. I’m not going to complain about it.
I want to be around those who live in the US, I want to have a different experience from Europe. As my Uncle said it “I loved it. Being around people from another country, another culture.”. I’m sure at the time, he felt something… something different that he would not have found in Europe. He was in a public school. My brother, who studied aviation in a private school said that he had troubles making “US” friends. But, at the end, he got a lot of them and is now very happy.</p>

<p>I’m afraid that a score superior than 2100 would be difficult for me to get (I’m not saying it is not possible, just that I have not that much time left to prepare myself). I like your idea of me going to a private school. I did some research, but it is difficult to find a private school willing to accept scores ~2000 for the SAT. Do you know some (preferably, in California or Illinois-Wisconsin) private schools? I think USC and U.Chicago are good schools.</p>

<p>I did some research about our Baccalaureate at the European School and here is what I fond about our grades: [European</a> Baccalaureate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Baccalaureate]European”>European Baccalaureate - Wikipedia) and [Eeb2:</a> English’A’-Levels Conversion Table 2008-2009](<a href=“http://www.eeb2.be/new_site/index.php?id=102&L=1]Eeb2:”>http://www.eeb2.be/new_site/index.php?id=102&L=1). I don’t really know if it is supposed to be for students willing to study in US or UK, maybe you can help me with the second page.</p>

<p>To sum up, I’m not 100% sure to study in the US, but that would be great.</p>

<p>I still have one question that I forgot to ask you. How long can I stay in US after graduating (finishing school)? I also have my uncle and brother living in United States. Don’t know if it may help in some ways…</p>

<p>Thanks for all your answers :)</p>

<p>Tim</p>

10

<p>First, in regards to the SAT, I would not worry excessively. You would be admitted through a different pool from US students and it is not typically expected internationals will score as high on the SAT especially in CR and writing. A good score on the math SAT is a plus if you plan to apply to more tech oriented colleges. </p>

<p>Because your degree is not common and will be mostly unknown to the admissions offices you should take steps to have it reviewed by an independent accreditation agency. There are two reasons for this:
-First the admissions department needs a translation of your scores into a GPA equivalent.
-Second, for credit as many colleges will give you advanced standing or credit for many courses. This can be quite substantial and can add up to an entire year of college. Saving $40,000 to $50,000 is not a small amount. many French bac, German Abitur and IB grads routinely get these credits. The link below for the University of Virginia gives you an example of how the credits work.
[International</a> College-level Exam Credit — Undergraduate, College of Arts & Sciences, U.Va.](<a href=“http://artsandsciences.virginia.edu/college/admissions/international_exams.html]International”>http://artsandsciences.virginia.edu/college/admissions/international_exams.html)</p>

<p>**As a rule, I would only apply to colleges that have such credit policies. **
You can easily find the policies on the international application page of the college web site. If the school lists nothing, I would be very concerned that they admit few if any international applicants with these degrees and you may be wasting your time and money applying. Many smaller colleges are stingy with IB, AP or A level credits as they want you to enroll for the full 4 years. Stay away from them.</p>

<p>YOU CANNOT DO THIS TRANSLATION AND EVALUATION YOURSELF OR JUST PASTE WEB PAGES. You need an officially recognized academic evaluation organization to do this for you. There are many well known accreditations organizations in Europe. Most of them review undergrad degrees but they can also review high school diplomas. Again, I suggest you provide an evaluation of your planned degree as compared to the International Baccalaureate. Most colleges routinely deal with applicants with the IB. Comparison with A levels can also be useful but won’t necessarily provide the same amount of credit given to applicants with the IB. You will need a full course by course evaluation, not just a general degree comparison. It costs a little more but is very important. </p>

<p>Here is a list of well known academic eveluation organizations provided by Cal Poly as an example
[International</a> Academic Evaluations - Admissions - Cal Poly](<a href=“http://www.ess.calpoly.edu/_admiss/international/intl_acad_evaluations.html]International”>http://www.ess.calpoly.edu/_admiss/international/intl_acad_evaluations.html)</p>

<p>In regards to visas, you should be able to get a J-1 visa for exchange students after college for a period up to 18 months. In general, you will be expected to return to your home country for at least two years after expiration of the J1 before applying for new visa, although you can get a waiver. </p>

<p>A better choice is to get an H1B visa for which you can apply after graduation from college in the US. The initial term is 3 years and it can be renewed for a total of 6 years. It requires than a US employer makes you a job offer for a position for which it cannot find a qualified US applicant. It used to be very easy to get such visas in the past for computer science grads. There is generally a quota of H1B issued in the US in any given year and some years the quota was reached within days. Best is to apply On April 1 of the graduation year (assuming you have a job offer). You cannot change jobs while on an H1B or you have to get a new visa. Just look up Wikipedia for H1B visas for more info. </p>

<p>California has lots of colleges, both private and public. It is very hard for internationals to get admitted to the top University of California schools (Berkeley, UCLA, San Diego…) as they take very few non-residents and are very selective. You may have a shot at some of the second tier UCs such as Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz (beautiful settings) or Irvine. There are a few good Cal State colleges such as Cal Poly San Luis Obispo to consider. </p>

<p>There are also many good private colleges beyond Caltech and Stanford (which are out of reach unless you have some major awards). The list includes:
USC
University of San Diego
USF
Occidental
Pepperdine
Santa Clara
Chapman
As well as Harvey Mudd part of the Claremont University Consortium.</p>

<p>Illinois also has a number of good schools you can look up on the USNWR site. </p>

<p>I would not restrict myself to just California, Wisconsin or Illinois even if you have relatives nearby. You may have a good shot at some of the largest state school such as U. Arizona, Washington, or Colorado in the West. You may also want to consider schools such as U. Kansas or Minnesota which are better values than UIUC. </p>

<p>If you are serious about this project you’d better get started with the application process, getting your credential checked, evaluating your budget and selecting a range of schools that fit your needs. This will take a lot of time and effort especially since you are not in the US. If I were you I would get on a plane and try to visit some of the schools. It could be well worth it and some of the schools may see you a serious candidate if you actually show up for a visit. </p>

<p>Good Luck.</p>

11

<p>Do you need financial aid? That will play a large role in acceptances.</p>

12

<p>The OP should assume he will not get any financial aid.</p>

13

<p>Thank you for long answer cellardweller! </p>

<p>Twomules, no. I don’t need any financial aid.</p>

14

<p>@Xiggi: in the UK at least, a grade 6 or 7 in a IB HL subject is considered equivalent to a grade A in the corresponding British A-Level. UK universities, including Oxbridge, routinely make admission offers based on IB results. </p>

<p>@Tim2011: I respect your desire to go to the US for your bachelor’s degree, but I tend to agree with Cellardweller. In other words, I don’t think a US undergraduate education is worth it for European students given the cost and the depth level of American bachelor’s degrees (usually shallower than in Europe). I would go for a 5-year Bologna master’s and then apply to a PhD program in the US (where you are almost guaranteed to have a free ride if you’re accepted and quality compares favorably to Europe).</p>

15

<p>Tim2011</p>

<p>You need to read through everything (and I do indeed mean everything) at [EducationUSA</a> | Study Abroad, Student Visa, University Fairs, College Applications and Study in the U.S. / America](<a href=“http://www.educationusa.state.gov/]EducationUSA”>http://www.educationusa.state.gov/) Then you should make an appointment with the counselors at the advising center in Brussels [EducationUSA</a> - Center Profile - Commission for Educational Exchange Between the United States, Belgium and Luxembourg](<a href=“http://www.educationusa.info/Fulbright-Belgium]EducationUSA”>http://www.educationusa.info/Fulbright-Belgium) These people are the experts on helping students from your country find good places to study in the US. They can advise you on the entire process, and can tell you which colleges and universities here have accepted students with your profile in recent years.</p>

<p>Wishing you all the best.</p>

16

<p>Bruno123: I’m not a 100% sure to go and study in United States. UK is a possibility. But definitely not Belgium, nor France. Anyway, thanks for your opinion :slight_smile: It makes me think a lot.</p>

<p>Happymomof1: Thanks for all the links you included in your post. I’ll read it all tomorrow. I already tried to contact Education USA (for more than 3 days) by phone (I’m not in Belgium right now…) but nobody is answering. I’ll go to there office as soon as I’m back in Belgium. I heard they got some good advice for student like me. Thank you for your post :)</p>

17

<p>I wish all posters were as pleasant as Tim.
Good Luck Tim.</p>

18

<p>

</p>

<p>May I ask you what the relevance of this is? While I do not doubt that the IB diploma is accepted in the UK and that there is a concordance table, this does not change anything to what I wrote before. In Belgium, the IB diploma is offered at schools that are not part of the traditional system of education that comprises both public and recognized private schools. </p>

<p>Fwiw, the OP is attending a highly regarded RECOGNIZED school and not one of the five or six IB schools that target international students. The OP will not have any difficulty to apply to the UK as his school has a resident advisor that works with UCAS.</p>

19

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>Today, I was able to call some universities (Texas Austin and University of Wisconsin-Madison). Those two schools said that I must take the TOEFL in order to apply in their school.
Got some information (after asking some questions) about their school and that’s it. </p>

<p>Just minutes ago, I read happymomof1’s link ([EducationUSA</a> | Study Abroad, Student Visa, University Fairs, College Applications and Study in the U.S. / America](<a href=“http://www.educationusa.state.gov/]EducationUSA”>http://www.educationusa.state.gov/)) and found out something interesting but I did not quite understand it:</p>

<p>

Link of quote: [EducationUSA</a> - Research Choices & Tests](<a href=“http://www.educationusa.info/pages/students/research-testing.php]EducationUSA”>http://www.educationusa.info/pages/students/research-testing.php) then click on “Tests”.</p>

<p>Can someone explain to me what it really means? My idea of what it means is that I can ask my teacher/adviser to write a verification “letter” of my English skills. How do I know if one school accept this “letter” or not? I bet I need to call them, right? :)</p>

<p>I also did some research of private schools. Can you tell me if my choice is good or not? :)</p>

<p>Boston University
Drexel University
Hampton University
Rochester Institute of Technology
University of Southern California</p>

<p>Thank you all for participating and helping me going through this process of applying in US.</p>