<p>Hello everyone,</p>
<p>This is my first post here. I have a question which I think could be of interest to more people than just myself. A couple of days ago I wrote an email to Harvard's Department of Government Admissions Office with an inquiry, only to receive a generic 'We do not take questions regarding admissions, etc.' in return. I have posted the email I sent below, and hope some of you can help me:</p>
<p>"Hi,</p>
<p>I am a young, ambitious Norwegian student currently planning for my own future. I was wondering whether or not a BA degree from a Norwegian university would fulfill the academic requirements for admission to Harvard's Department of Government. (It does not seem to do so.)</p>
<p>The following paragraph has me confused, and, frankly, a little worried: "Applicants who wish to pursue a degree at the Graduate School must hold the equivalent of a US bachelor's degree (BA or BS) from an institution of recognized standing. The following guidelines apply to undergraduate programs outside the US: [...] Other European countries: university degree requiring a minimum of four years of study."</p>
<p>As of 2009, Norwegian universities - together with nearly all European institutions of higher education - conform to the same, universal accords (brought on by the Bologna process). Hence, Norwegian undergraduate programs take three years to complete, and not four like in the United States. Does this represent a problem for a holder of a BA degree from a Norwegian university? If so, wouldn't nearly all European applicants (beside the British, French and Germans) be ineligible for admission to post-graduate programs at Harvard University?</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>... "</p>
<p>Ummm… well, the 4-year minimum thing is, strictly speaking, a guideline. At US universities, it is technically possible to finish almost any major in 3 years, for the diligent student at a large university. So the amount of time you take is not really at issue.</p>
<p>Compare the material covered in your program to that of US universities. What is your undergraduate major, or the closest thing to it in US terms? Let’s say you have what we would call a Political Science major.</p>
<p>Here’s what the Harvard government undergraduate program looks like:
[Requirements</a> | Harvard University - Department of Government](<a href=“http://www.gov.harvard.edu/undergraduate-program/concentration-requirements/requirements]Requirements”>http://www.gov.harvard.edu/undergraduate-program/concentration-requirements/requirements)</p>
<p>Take a look at the courses they offer undergraduates. Have you taken courses that deal with the same general material? If you can identify a healthy number of courses that you’ve taken, you can argue that you’ve done the equivalent.</p>
<p>[Fall</a> Undergraduate Courses 2008 | Harvard University - Department of Government](<a href=“http://www.gov.harvard.edu/courses/fall-undergraduate-courses-2008]Fall”>http://www.gov.harvard.edu/courses/fall-undergraduate-courses-2008)</p>
<p>[Spring</a> Undergraduate Courses 2009 | Harvard University - Department of Government](<a href=“http://www.gov.harvard.edu/courses/spring-undergraduate-courses-2009]Spring”>http://www.gov.harvard.edu/courses/spring-undergraduate-courses-2009)</p>
<p>I’m not sure exactly how Harvard works, but most places require in the neighborhood of 30 to 60 hours of in-major courses for the major. For Harvard, I would gun for ~60. That is the equivalent of 20 classes… so in 3 years, that’s about 7 classes per year. That’s maybe 4 each semester, which isn’t unreasonable.</p>
<p>Do not despair. They won’t bar you from entry just because your program was a year shorter. Bear in mind, however, that it might be a good idea to get a master’s degree before going to Harvard. Entrance is competitive, or so I hear.</p>
<p>and like other Europeans if you want to apply for Phd programs in the United States, you will need to do a masters degree first. Most of the world does three year undergrad degrees except the United States.</p>
<p>AuburnMathTutor, thank you for your reply. You’re of course right that U.S. students can finish their undergraduate degrees in three years. As for the guidelines for European students, I was thinking along the lines that the Admissions page just wasn’t up to date with regards to the European higher education system post-Bologna, because it makes little sense to require of European students a “university degree requiring a minimum of four years of study” when very few European universities have 4-year BA programs these days.</p>
<p>Belevitt: The program of study I am inquiring about is an integrated AM/PhD program (the AM degree can be conferred after two years of study if preferable).</p>
<p>EBS - I believe belevitt is suggesting that you should do a 1-year masters in Norway (or wherever) before applying in the US, as this would be equivalent in time and nominal content to a US bachelors degree. American universities are well aware of this inequity and it is one of the few times they will award a second masters in the same subject. As such, the AM from Harvard is irrelevent for this discussion.</p>
<p>]quote]you should do a 1-year masters in Norway (or wherever) before applying in the US, as this would be equivalent in time and nominal content to a US bachelors degree. American universities are well aware of this inequity and it is one of the few times they will award a second masters in the same subject.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think cosmicfish is correct. I know a number of U.S. PhD students with undergraduate and masters degrees from European universities, and the masters was necessary for them to be competitive applicants to their U.S. programs.</p>
<p>Okay, I was not aware of this. I am familiar with several Norwegians (and other Europeans) who have gone on to do their Master’s degree in the U.S. right after their 3-year BA degree. To me, it seemed that Harvard’s requirements represented an anomaly (which is understandable, given its status as one of the world’s top universities), and not the average U.S. institution.</p>
<p>Remember that it all depends on the strength of your overall application and the preferences of the school. In general, US grad programs want to see a 4-year college program or collection of programs, regardless of how long it actually took. They will bend this depending on your stature relative to other applicants - if you have a stronger app than the rest they may accept your bachelors by itself just to entice you to the school. With Harvard the quality of applicants is so high they would probably never bend.</p>
<p>with a 3-year european BA, you definitely need a 1-year masters degree before you can get into masters OR PhD programs in the states, including harvard’s program.</p>
<p>I would still suggest to the OP that he compare what he has studied to the nominal undergraduate course offered by Harvard in the area of government to see what they are expecting of you; if you have had more or less the same coverage as the program at Harvard provides, you will have an easier time convincing them that you’re a potentially successful applicant.</p>
<p>It was my experience in Europe that high school lasts a year longer, and then university is a year shorter… that’s how it was in Bologna, Italy when I lived there, anyway. They had a 3-year program that would be the equivalent of a US bachelor’s and a 5-year program that would be a US bachelor’s + master’s.</p>
<p>I have never heard it suggested before that you would need a master’s degree from a European school to get into graduate programs here in the states, or that a 3-year program was somehow less impressive than our 4-year programs. In the US, undergraduate programs usually include a fair amount of core distribution electives outside the major. These are, to my knowledge, not present in some European schools’ curricula.</p>
<p>If you add an extra year of high school and put all the core in there, and then take 3 years of intensive study in the major discipline, I’d imagine that would make you more qualified, not less qualified, than most American students. Just my 2 cents.</p>
<p>For instance, consider what is covered in the 3-year “informatica” program at Bologna:</p>
<p>mathematical analysis
complements of analysis
physics
probability and statistics
numerical analysis
computer architecture
computer programming
languages and structures
programming languages
computer networks
operating systems
web technologies
databases
english as a foreign language
theoretical computer science
software engineering
senior design project
final test
computer security</p>
<p>At my current university, Auburn, the ABET-accredited CS program requires:</p>
<p>Computer Programming
Calculus (2 courses)
Science (2 courses)
Probability and Statistics
Math Elective
Computer organization
Data structures
Algorithms
Languages
Networks
Operating systems
theoretical cs
software engineering
(and a handful of electives)</p>
<p>The other CS requirements are all gen-ed and stuff. As you can see, the core is more or less faithfully represented in the 3-year program. Case in point.</p>
<p>AuburnMathTutor, I think you’re right. Norwegian/European upper secondary school is, indeed, one year longer than the high school/preparatory programs of the U.S.</p>
<p>Also, European higher ed. financial aid institutions generally do not provide students taking a BA degree in the U.S. for their first year in college.</p>
<p>In light of this, I found Harvard’s (and others) requirements odd/unreasonable. I realize I should have brought up these facts in my first post.</p>
<p>I suggest that you look at Harvard’s graduate students in the program and see what qualifications the European students have. If they all have masters degrees, then you can be sure it is needed.</p>