<p>I will be applying this fall and would love to hear some insight as to what my chances are at the top 5 law schools. The biggest variable right now is the LSAT, because I have not taken it yet. However, I've always been in the 99th percentile of all standardized tests (ACT, GMAT, GRE) so let's assume a 175 +/- a few points. So here are the facts:</p>
<p>Undergrad GPA (Philosophy and Italian): 3.92
Grad GPA (MBA) : 3.95
Extras: Model UN, PBK, graduated with distinction, currently volunteer with Junior Achievement
Work Experience: 4.5 years of business ownership (opened a restaurant junior year of college; also co-own a clothing start-up)</p>
<p>My heart is set on Harvard Law (long story), but obviously I would be thrilled to attend any of the top 5. Help me out!</p>
<p>Nothing can really be said without an LSAT score. If you score as you think you will, you should have a good shot at any school in the T5. But the LSAT is very much different from other standardized tests, so predicting your chances based on a score estimate is relatively pointless. The test is not necessarily harder, but it’s definitely different.</p>
<p>If you can get something in the 170’s, I’d say you’d have a pretty good shot at HLS. Don’t dump on NYU, though. It’s every bit as good as Chicago or Columbia.</p>
<p>lol you must be a clueless undergrad if you are classifying law schools based on a “top 5” division. you need to evaluate what job you want, where you want to want, your loan outlook before you set yourself up to go to a “T5” school. </p>
<p>the schools are divided like this: HYS (harvard yale stanford), CCN (columbia chicago nyu), MVP (michigan virginia upenn). the rankings within these groupings are interchangeable except for yale which is seen as a step or two better than any other law school. also, it is very presumptuous to say you will get a 175+ because you score in the 99th percentile on the act,gre, and gmat. those tests are laughably easy compared to the lsat. and why would you go to harvard law instead of yale. that is the dumbest thing i have heard. go do some research.</p>
<p>Knowledge of the T5 cutoff demonstrates a strong grasp of the severe risk associated with attending law school.</p>
<p>YHS (premiere schools with truly national reach) + CN (premiere schools located in closest proximity to nation’s largest legal market)</p>
<p>What’s the problem?</p>
<p>With a 3.92 LSDAS GPA and 175 LSAT score, OP would be a lock at Harvard. Harvard’s incoming classes are massive, and they need to keep their medians high.</p>
<p>first of all, nobody in the legal world (biglaw/clerkships/fed) categorizes the law schools on the basis of T5. a T5 distinction has no meaning for law school admissions and is utterly meaningless as the CCN group shuffles every year. </p>
<p>secondly, since when was chicago riskier than columbia/nyu? go look at the placement stats and you will see it is actually less risker to go to chicago because of their small class size and their reputation in new york city.</p>
<p>third, it is a fool’s choice to take CCN over a significant scholarship at MVP since the placement gap between these groupings are not big enough to take out six figures of debt. upenn especially does well in new york city.</p>
<p>lastly, yes OP would have a great shot, but assuming they will get a 175 because they aced the GRE/GMAT/ACT is a stupid and borderline arrogant assumption.</p>
<p>First off, I would like to thank all of you for your input. I do know that assuming anything about the LSAT is quite presumptuous, but I assure you that my 175 estimation is not entirely baseless. I have taken prep courses and practice tests that would indicate a score in the mid-170s is quite attainable, if not likely. I apologize for leaving this information out of my original post.</p>
<p>The reason I phrased it as T5 (rather than T14, HYS-CCN-MVP, etc.) was purely based upon the fact that 4 of the traditional top 5 schools fit very well with the criteria I consider important. My personal requirements do not hinge exclusively on something as relatively trivial as the USN&WR rankings, but rather take into account everything from alumni connections I have, location, future employment prospects, and (perhaps most importantly) the quality of joint degree programs.</p>
<p>My ideal joint degree program would be a JD/MPP or MPA. It is primarily for this reason that I singled out Harvard in my original post. The Harvard Kennedy School public policy programs typically rank in top 2 or 3 in the country and are essentially unparalleled in prestige. When considering the quality of both JD and MPP/MPA programs in tandem, no other school compares with HLS/HKS. </p>
<p>Obviously, I will not make up my mind until I know my acceptance/financial aid status at each of the schools in which I am interested. Until that time I would love to continue hearing from knowledgeable, insightful people about the strengths and weaknesses of all options. Thanks again for all of your time.</p>
<p>you don’t need to go to harvard law to do a joint program with the kennedy school. i think chicago is the only top law school that does not have a joint program with the kennedy school. and speaking as someone who did the dual program already (not from harvard law but from one of the other HYS schools), i can tell you right now that the kennedy school is not prestigious. it is seen as a cash cow program that is a far step below other good professional schools. it will get you wows from relatives and lay people, but not from those already in the industry. it makes even less sense if you are already going to be getting a JD from a top school. even the harvard undergrads know this. every HYS student applying to the kennedy school gets in (yes, 100% acceptance) because the kennedy school knows those kids are more valuable to them. if you are pursuing a JD, there is no reason to blow your money at the kennedy school. it will not help you get a better job and it will not give you any skills that will help you as a lawyer. i hope you do some more research before you pursue a degree at the kennedy school because it will cost you a huge chunk of change with little or not benefits if you do get into a top law program.</p>
<p>While I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the quality of HKS, I think it would be foolish of me to disregard the opinion of a grad of either Yale or Stanford Law, as you have indicated yourself to be. As such, I would like to ask what your (i.e. PlantBottles’) suggestion for me would be given the following:</p>
<p>-Cost of the program is actually of relatively minimal importance to me (the businesses I own provide me with sufficient passive income to fund even an expensive dual degree program)</p>
<p>-My preference would be to do the joint degree program at one school, even though I am aware that there exists a precedent for doing it through alternate means (I have an acquaintance who did something similar between Columbia Law and Woodrow Wilson at Princeton)</p>
<p>-Though quality of the law program is obviously where my priority lies, the realm of public policy is an area that intrigues me immensely. Accordingly, partaking in a rigorous, rewarding public policy program is of the utmost importance.</p>
<p>-Attending law (and further graduate) school is not merely a means to and end for me. I currently live a life I deem comfortable, so my motivation for furthering my education might be a bit less pragmatic than the typical students you encounter. This is to say that pursuing the path to making me the most money is not really of great importance to me.</p>
<p>Given all of that information and that which I have stated in my earlier posts, what would you recommend?</p>
<p>well my way of thinking is that if you have the money to spend, you should spend it the way you want. with that said, i think you should also apply to princeton since that program is actually very respected in all circles due to its rigor and training curriculum. if you get into princeton, you should probably take it without blinking an eye. generally in the law/policy field, princeton is thought of as significantly above all other schools (even HKS). the quality of HKS is debated depending on who the assessment comes from. for those in top law schools, MBAs, etc, it is seen as disappointing, but for others they see it as decent since they have no comparison to make.</p>
<p>i think the problem lies in the fact that you will also (i am assuming) be attending a top law school. there is so much overlay between law and policy that you could probably get a good amount of policy work done by taking courses at a policy school as electives. at my law school orientation, the dean told us to do exactly that and save money unless “we needed a piece of paper”. if you talk to some ppl in the policy field, the consensus is that the law degree is the superior degree for policy and that the MPP/MPA does not add much (in your case nothing since you would already have a prestigious law degree). the only thing i learned at HKS that i could not in law school was quantitative skills, but i rarely use those skills and they could be learned on your own on the job.</p>
<p>as a side warning, i was very impressed with princeton students, but very disappointed with the quality of my fellow HKS students. some very accomplished, but many were not very impressive in their intellectual abilities or work experiences. many of them did not get very good jobs after graduation and the ones who were the most successful were those doing dual degrees with an MD, MBA, or a JD because these degrees pave the road. however, the recruiting at HKS was diverse and i had good experiences looking into different career options. one thing you might want to consider is that doing the dual program may raise questions if you ever decide to do biglaw. </p>
<p>so if you want to study policy for intellectual reasons, the best would be taking electives during law school. if you really want to do policy work on your own some day, the best way would be to do an MBA alone or with the JD. if you want the experience and name of HKS, do HKS. in the end, i think you should do what makes you happy and what will satisfy you since it is your life and your money. good luck!</p>
<p>@plantbottles
If people want serious advice, college confidential is not at all the place to go.
It’s true purpose is really for overanxious parents/potential students to vent and ask dumb questions they are afraid to ask in a normal social setting for fear of being dubbed weird/insane. </p>
<p>If you actually have a legitimate question, there is almost always a much better place to ask.</p>
<p>PlantBottles, thank you for the great advice. I will take all of it under consideration while I continue to research possible paths. I really appreciate your time.</p>