<p>For a list of colleges with consciously different policies, see </p>
<p><a href="http://www.568group.org/%5B/url%5D">http://www.568group.org/</a> </p>
<p>a link I learned about in another CC thread. </p>
<p>P.S. Mini is a "he"; I had the privilege of meeting him in person today.</p>
<p>Well, until this year, if they'd tried to guess our income by our zip code, they'd be wrong, wrong, wrong. we live in a neighborhood that averages much, much lower than what our income was when our kids applied. And you know what? If anything, I think that guessing wrong helped, rather than hurt our kids. I think they might have thought, well, those kids did that well coming from there? We want them. I'm sure that this stuff happens at the majority of schools in this country, but at the ones who turn down most students, who can pick and choose, I just don't see it.</p>
<p>Token, the 568 Group only agrees on methodology for applying for financial aid (certainly a worthy and commendable goal); it does not deal at all with how how financial aid or merit money is packaged and doled out, as they say on their own website:</p>
<p>" The Consensus Approach deals exclusively with the family's ability to pay for college. It does not address issues associated with the "packaging" of awards (i.e., the mix of grant, loan, and work components), nor does it concern itself with so-called "merit" awards, whether academic or athletic. "</p>
<p>I can assure you that all of the schools in the 568 Group undoubtably have enrollment managers, hire enrollment management consulting firms, and use enrollment management techniques when it comes time to package financial aid and merit money to attract and retain the most desireable candidates from the institution's point of view. At least one of the 568 Group is specifically mentioned in the article as an example of a school that has successfully leveraged how financial aid and merit money is packaged to attract students. </p>
<p>Garland, yes, demographic information is not perfect --- but it's been proven to be effective enough that most large corporations selling to consumers spend thousands, if not millions of dollars, each year using it.</p>
<p>Interesting....if they choose zip code, ours will read as a semi rural town. We, however, live in the suburban section of the town. Ours ranges from small condominums and small older homes, to lakefront properties worth in the millions. How would zip code tease out the difference between the condo renter and the lakeside owner?</p>
<p>The most sophisticated marketing psychographic programs use much more than zip code to determine family income and other characteristics. For a price, a marketer can pretty much tell what the people who live on a specific block eat for dinner, what race they are, and how well educated they are likely to be. Again, it's not a perfect science but it's perfect enough. :)</p>
<p>Here's one of literally hundreds of firms out there doing this:
<a href="http://www.mapinfo.com/location/integration?txtTopNav=4a4a2545d8a37f00dev-vcm100001a031dc7____&txtLeftNav=99d8fb292ee47f00dev-vcm100001a031dc7____&txtExtNav=01f8fb292ee47f00dev-vcm100001a031dc7____&source=Google%5B/url%5D">http://www.mapinfo.com/location/integration?txtTopNav=4a4a2545d8a37f00dev-vcm100001a031dc7____&txtLeftNav=99d8fb292ee47f00dev-vcm100001a031dc7____&txtExtNav=01f8fb292ee47f00dev-vcm100001a031dc7____&source=Google</a></p>
<p>And, here's something else from the article, the comments in Upper case are mind):</p>
<p>"Schools and consultants combine test scores, grades, and class rankingf from the testing services and students' high schools' (THINK SCHOOL PROFILE) with demographic and financial data purchased from a credit-reporting agency such as Equifax."</p>
<p>So, even if you are a high income person living in a low income neighborhood, it is entirely possible that you could be picked out of the crowd.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think the message of both articles is that anyone who needs substantial financial aid needs to cast a very wide net, and not grow too attached to any particular school UNTIL the financial aid package is in hand.:
[/quote]
I couldn't agree more. </p>
<p>I am a vigorous (rabid, pennant waving) fan of schools with transparent, automatic, guaranteed, stats driven, merit aid policies and post favorable comments about them often . I usually get some criticism for aiming too low when I do so. (To oversimplify: Pick the right school, then make the money work is the only way to be.) I can live with the criticism, because I believe those auto-programs fill a need for middle class families that other programs don't. What need? Being able to sleep at night without worrying whether your kid can go someplace other than in-state publics.</p>
<p>I think this article shows some of the institutional duplicity woven through-out the current "enrollment management" focused approach. At least at the straight-forward schools they are obvious about "gaming" the system. Transparency can be a beautiful thing.</p>
<p>I agree Cur. Schools like DePauw, that have a merit aid calculator right on their site that tells you exactly how much merit money you are likely to get --- well, that's a step up (of course, even DePauw doesn't tell you how they'll put together your financial aid package in terms of loans, more grants, etc.).</p>
<p>And, the downside of this is that DePauw has, at various times in the past few years, had its bonds downgraded by the credit agencies for discounting too much and too obviously.</p>
<p>"...Such gestures [shifting from loans to grants] make for good public relations, and they do help a few students, but they don't make it easier for low-income students to gain admission."</p>
<p>My point exactly.</p>
<p>So, as you've probably figured out, BANANAs, <em>in itself</em> financial need would not be an early disqualifier at an Ivy. It may not even be an ultimate disqualifier, & would be less likely to disqualify an applicant than it would be at (apparently) the schools mentioned in the Atlantic article. Your admission to an Ivy (& level of aid) would most likely be based on your value to the school, in their eyes.</p>
<p>mini, as someone who has had several apparent sex change operations on this board, I sincerely apologize. :)</p>
<p>iderochi, he/she/he/she/he has been busy hasn't he/she/he/she/he?LOL.</p>
<p>OK, at the risk of boring people, one of the largest enrollment management consulting firms identified in the article is Noel Levitz.
Their website is a treasure trove of insights into enrollment management --- especially the page on their research and strategies (although their services page is interesting too).</p>
<p>The overall website is <a href="http://www.noellevitz.com%5B/url%5D">www.noellevitz.com</a></p>
<p>But, I specifically want to direct people to this research survey they did asking colleges about their enrollment management strategies:</p>
<p>It makes for fascinating reading.</p>
<p>And, here's a direct link to their client list:</p>
<p>And here's another consulting firm "specializing in financial aid/net tuition revenue" with some big name clients like Brown, Boston College, etc.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.scannellkurz.com/%5B/url%5D">http://www.scannellkurz.com/</a></p>
<p>This reminds me of a certain story, in which a cycle of corruption is perpetuated by the wealthy; the wealthy rely on their socioeconomics to create more opportunities for their children than what the lower class's children receive.</p>
<p>DPs I just got my issue today...and I'm thinking of writing u of chicago saying I knew you were leading me on...but I fell for you....and you slapped me anyway. I wrote the best essay I had ever written...comparing a buying big jar of mustard to unconsciously voting for a lousy candidate....I was sufficiently quirky and pithy...I was a fool....because you were the beautiful girl and I thought you really liked me. you invited me to the dance but denied me a kiss....Your little secret is slipping out....you do that with a lot of guys....i'm so over chicago. ...ok now i dont have to write that email...thanks DPs</p>
<p>greencloth, what story might that be? Will and Ariel Durant's Story of Civilization? LOL. Man bites man.</p>
<p>OK, so how does that affect what we advise our kids, individually & collectively? As a family, we have always assumed that we would never qualify for need-based financial aid anyway. I guess this may be one reason we get so much mail from pricey schools that assume we're ready to pay everything?</p>
<p>I know a couple of young bucks who do computer modelling for a major league baseball team. The data they calculate in scouting is so minute--their projections can predict which recruits will play in which way during which type of game. </p>
<p>In other words, major league baseball is using compter modelling to split hairs to find the best recruits for the money. I bet elite admissions modelling is equally as sophisticated.</p>
<p>Good thread carolyn. Once again. ;) MVP for CC? I think so.....</p>
<p>Himom:</p>
<p>I think the lesson for parents (and it probably has to be a parental research project) is to learn as much about each college as you can in an effort to find out what their "hot buttons" are.</p>
<p>For example, if you start digging around in Financial Reports and Strategic Plans, you may find that a school is very concerned with their "discount rate" (the percentage of gross tuition being rebated in the form of financial aid. Sometimes you find an outright statement that finanical equalibrium cannot be maintained unless the discount rate is reduced. Well, if you are prepared to pay full-price and apply Early Decision, there is a darn good chance of getting accepted to that school, even with so-so stats. </p>
<p>In other cases, you may find that the hot-button is increasing "prestige" by raising median SAT scores and willingness to buy those scores with merit aid, if necessary. Emory, WashU, and Duke are three schools that appear to be significantly motivated by SAT scores. That knowledge gives you an edge in figuring out odds of admissions, depending on the test scores. For example, knowing that my daughter's EC would be a "hot button" at Swarthmore, I surmised that she actually would have better odds there and not so good odds at Duke where her test scores were short of "hot button" status.</p>
<p>It's not an exact science. But, if you are sufficiently cynical about it and willing to dig around a little bit, you can often figure out whether you might be on the plus or the minus side of the average odds at a school.</p>
<p>The failure to understand that different schools have different hot-buttons is why so many people think that college admissions are so "random".</p>
<p>I ran across a fascinating example. A few years back, there was a push to allow sororities at Davidson. The President ruled against the idea with a very explicit explanation. He pointed out that Davidson's stats (and therefore prestige) had increased signficantly because of the academic strength and orientation of the female applicant pool. However, that particular pool of consumers (academically oriented females) tends to view sororities as a negative. He felt that sororities on campus would reduce the appeal of the school to that highly desirable pool of applicants. Hmmmm...I'd kind of like my odds if I were a highly-academic female with matching ECs. Factor in the low percentage of financial aid recepients (never an accident) and improve the odds again as a full-price applicant.</p>
<p>HIMom, What I tell people is that the applicant can very well play the same game. They need to interpret value as it relates to themselves. Maybe they can determine that by prioritizing & segmenting in a way not dissimilar to college administrations. How much do I want these particular opportunities in this particular major (or climate, or location, or academic milieu, or campus culture, etc.), & what am I willing to pay for it, be physically cold/hot for it, be isolated from urban life for it, etc.?</p>
<p>I think that worth is such a huge factor in an applicant's decisions among multiple offers, & certainly in constructing the list itself. Even a very needy student might reject a full-ride offer if that were the only such offer but for an "education" not worth the high tuition. (There are several 4-yr. private colleges near us that really are glorified <em>public</em> high schools, yet their price tag equals the Ivies.) There is such a range in quality, i.m.o., among colleges who offer merit money, so you need to scrutinize what you're getting for the dollar.</p>
<p>Yes, the colleges are still the sellers in a Seller's Market, & even though your family is not among the most needy, you must have your own priorities and "scales."</p>
<p>Oh, we got tons of mail from pricey schools. So I don't think their mailing lists are based on assumed ability to pay.</p>