Exactly how unpredictable is admission into Upenn

<p>You guys are misinterpreting that 17% figure (which appears on the Class of 2011 page to which I linked above). In the context of that table, it means that 17% of the unranked applicants were accepted, i.e., 17% of the 13,976 unranked applicants, or about 2,376 of the total of 3,637 accepted applicants:</p>

<p>[Penn</a> Admissions: Incoming Class Profile](<a href=“http://web.archive.org/web/20080213223110/http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/profile/]Penn”>Penn Admissions: Incoming Class Profile)</p>

<p>In other words, for the Class of 2011, about 65% of the accepted applicants were from high schools that didn’t rank.</p>

<p>As JHS pointed out, the CDS is obviously in error when it states that 100% of the freshmen enrolled in the Class of 2013 submitted class rank. I suspect that whoever completed that portion of the CDS misunderstood what it was seeking, since Penn has stated in numerous other places that a large portion of its admitted applicants come from schools that don’t rank.</p>

<p>OK. That makes sense. And it’s basically consistent with the Brown data: Unranked students overall are admitted at a rate which winds up looking like the middle of the top decile. Actually, I strongly suspect that the admissions staff does some kind of ranking, and the ones who look like one of the best one or two students in the class get admitted at a high rate, and the ones who look like they are out of the top decile had better be awfully good at rushing the quarterback or hitting a squash ball.</p>

<p>^Could it be that 65% don’t officially rank as in “5/100” or whatever, but on the Secondary School Report where it asks the guidance office to rank, they rank by decile, which isn’t an official rank but still an indication? Does that make any sense?</p>

<p>So it’s not really guesswork.</p>

<p>You guys have to remember that the Adcoms do know that every high school is different, thats why there are regional directors who get to know most of the high schools in an area. High school reputation does matter when it comes to rank and admissions. My interviewer mentioned something about some schools getting certain multipliers based on its reputation or something. He said that Penn looks at where graduates from a high school graduate from college, and at what percent, so you might graduate from high school as valedictorian but then flunk out of college, Penn would know that. I am not sure how correct this information is but it would seem to make sense. </p>

<p>So based on that, I would say rank probably does matter more than just considered, if schools have certain reputations then a rank from so and so school will mean something different from a rank from another school. </p>

<p>As a side note its funny how the people who are vehemently arguing against class rank importance are those with lower class rank, and those arguing for class rank have a higher rank, we all let out our frustrations in subtle ways.</p>

<p>Disagreement, you indicate:</p>

<p>Where did you get that statistic? What high school do you go to? I know for a fact that MY high school, a public school, in the State of Washington, DOES weight when calculating class rank.</p>

<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Better check with your counseling office or your principal, because if they are using weight with honors or AP classes in the State of Washington, they are violating State Law which was put in place to not discriminate against the many students from school districts solely located within Native American nations venued within the geographic boundaries of the State of Washington. This, as it was determined by the WA Legislature that weighting GPAs would allow for discrimination; preventing some from potentially attending the flagship university [UW]. Offering honors and AP classes is a priviledge. Not every high school has the resources to afford them. There simply aren’t enough teachers expendible to teach such a wide array of classes to a gifted handful of students. Along these lines, as such honors/AP offerings primarily didn’t exist in these smaller and much more remote school districts and, until two years ago, UW admissions decisions were performed totally on a grid basis [between SAT/ACT scores/overall GPA], fairness was not being extended to all candidates throughout the state in the manner in which students were selected to attend the flagship university. </p>

<p>While UW now looks holistically at the entire application, some other public universities in the state still do not. The circumstance can also arise for students who take time off after graduation and are subsequently applying to the flagship university; hence the dilemna continues.</p>

<p>If you are a student from WA State [many others in the West may have similar issues], its a good thing that the entire transcript is looked at and rigor of coursework remains a “very important” factor amongst Penn Admissions. I personally believe it still ought to be the most important [see my earlier comments for why]. </p>

<hr>

<p>Off subject but Another thought: I’ve read far too many books in my years of launching many kids off to highly selective schools. I guess I’m sort of a junkie with the subject. I love to read books about what goes on within the admissions departments. Its real life situations with real people and more times than not, something good happens for those that really give it their all [OK, call me a softy]. Anyway, there most always are discussions in these books of a time within the collective Admissions Department review called “committee”. That’s where the obvious “admits” and the obvious “deny’s” have usually been determined and the remaining 80-90% of the students are still being reviewed for consideration. In reading likely 10+ books on this final week or two of the process, I’ve never heard of the Admissions folks describing a student as “Mr 2360” or Miss “4.8”. Instead, they are talking about something unique to the individual applicant’s story. Its “Mr Astronomer who also juggles” or “Miss grammar nazi”. </p>

<p>Isn’t it a good thing that the 3+ year “body of work” influences the greatest determinent of this process and that those who write recommendations and perform the comprehensive school report have a scale of 1-10 on just about every dimension they are questioned? It truly helps those, who take much time and care writing such important documents, the ability to distinguish. </p>

<p>I like that at least one form I saw recently even asks how long they author has been teaching or in education. Makes a difference when the recommendation comes from a 25 year teacher vs having 3 years experience and write “one of the best five I’ve ever had in any of my classes…”</p>

<p>Wow they actually use your SAT essay in admissions? Drat, I wrote that Hitler conquered Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia, I can’t remember which one (but it was wrong). </p>

<p>My other paragraph was about how I didn’t save my druggie boyfriend.</p>

<p>WikiMan, I was simply restating the data provided by Penn on the Common Data Set. That is all. I do think that rank is less important if it is not weighted. However, I think it is very reliable when it is in terms of weighted GPA’s. So no, I am not arguing against the importance of class rank. I am providing information that Penn has made public.</p>

<p>well yeah, rank without weighted GPA is pointless, that accomplishes nothing, but rank with weight does help make a distinction between a person in a school. I guess I just want rank to be important because I have a good one, so it could only help me if rank is weighted more, but I can see why some people would rather have rank just not considered at all. I read on another forum that Penn uses some kind of points system for each part of the application, and the total points need to be at a certain level or something, kind of like an AI but not really.</p>

<p>@wudman</p>

<p>I do not know if this is violating state law or not, but I BELIEVE what my school does is simply calculate a form of weighted GPA to determine class rank. However, this “weighted GPA” is never released to the student. All the class rank indicates is the success of the student in the most rigorous classes. The number one is actually the student who has achieved a 4.0 in the hardest classes, for example.</p>

<p>Of course, as a student, I don’t know if this is really what is happening. Based on my observations of peer ranks and the like, I would suggest that this is the case. (Or something similar for determining ranks.) I know for a fact that all Penn will receive is my unweighted GPA. I saw my guidance counselor type it in himself :)</p>

<p>And yes, I am very glad that they are looking at the transcript as well. Obviously a 3.98 doesn’t sound as good as a 4.0, but maybe that 3.98 looks a lot better when considered in light of the course rigor. </p>

<p>This is such an interesting and unique process!</p>

<p>which do they consider more, pure unweighted or core?</p>

<p>^ This statement from Penn’s admissions web site may be relevant:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>[Penn</a> Admissions: Incoming Class Profile](<a href=“http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/profile/]Penn”>http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/profile/)</p>

<p>^
THIS is exactly what they are looking for</p>

<p>^
^And that is EXACTLY what I pointed out in my post, which was the third on this thread.</p>

<p>Lets make one thing clear. Penn is a great school, in fact it is probably better than Duke, Columbia, CalTech, UChicago etc. Only HYPSM can claim to be better. This is a fact and the rankings show it. For all you 18+ year old losers on this thread who got rejected from Penn and are spreading hate please stop. By insulting Penn you are just openly declaring that you are a sour loser.
Admission at Penn is the same as any other IVY. The ENTIRE application must be strong. People with High GPAs and SATs have been rejected and those with inferior ones have been accepted. Thats probably cuz of their other application parts. Results are out in less that 48 hours so please see the Penn Decisions Thread and see for yourself the kind of people who got accepted and the kind who didnt.</p>

<p>

No, it isn’t. Here’s what you said in the third post in this thread:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The statement I quoted from the Penn web site contradicts your statement, and doesn’t support it. Penn is saying that it looks BEHIND the pure numbers (GPA and SATs), and instead focusses on both the rigor of the courses taken AND the grades within the context of the school. Translation: Penn is NOT looking for kids with just high numbers (4.0 GPA, #1 ranking in class, etc.), but is instead looking for kids who have challenged themselves academically and excelled at that within the context of their schools (meaning that a 3.8 GPA in the toughest courses at a highly competitive high school trumps a 4.0 GPA valedictorian who took relatively easy courses at a less competitive high school). So anything but “shallow,” and NOT “GPA and SATs above all else.”</p>

<p>As chelsearox points out, all you have to do is scan a few decision threads in the Penn forum to see how many kids with top GPAs and SATs get rejected in favor of kids with lower stats but more compelling ECs, essays, recs, etc.</p>