Excellent new Crimson story about the HARVARD admissions process

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
41

<p>
[quote]
like I said, those people who drop pre-med or don't get above a 3.0, or don't do well on the MCAT, SHOULD not go to medical school, whether it be at HMS or PSU. What are the anachronisms of the pre-med curriculum?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The anachronisms are simple - med-school adcoms care very little about how difficult your coursework was. Hence, a guy who took easy classes and got top grades will receive greater consideration than a guy who took extremely difficult classes and got worse grades, even if the latter person actually worked harder and was smarter. This is something that people who major in difficult subjects like engineering or physics run into time and time again. Let's face it. Certain majors are simply easier than others. </p>

<p>Put another way, I would give greater consideration to somebody who did electrical engineering and got a 2.9 than somebody who did "American Studies" and got a 3.5. But med-school adcoms don't see it that way. That's a major anachronism of the process. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And if you think pre-med is hard, its frankly a cake walk compared to medical school - which is why I think its a good thing for the process to be more exclusive than inclusive. Many people who "want" to be doctors might not really have it in them despite what they feel. I think this clash often between desire and ability is what feeds the inundation of complaints from the many pre-meds who didn't make it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, I disagree. The hardest part about med-school is simply getting in. That doesn't mean that med-school is a cakewalk, but the fact is, practically nobody ever actually flunks out of med-school. </p>

<p>To give you an example, I know a couple of guys who graduated from MIT, and are now resident doctors who said with a straight face that med-school was NOTHING compared to what they had to put up with as premeds at MIT. As medical students, they had the security of knowing that as long as they did all the work, they would become doctors. However, at MIT, they could work like absolute dogs and STILL end up with bad grades that would knock them out of contention for med-school. In fact, they told me about numerous other premed colleagues at MIT that they knew that didn't make it to med-school despite working extremely hard. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Furthermore, your argument "if its there, it must be there for a good reason or else it wouldn't exist" is sort of a cop-out no offense. The fact is that there are very very few programs and none are linked to good medical schools (with the exception of Northwestern). Which is why I have absolutely no idea why anyone who could get into harvard or wherever, would cash in their chips early and take the easy road of guaranteed admission to U Miami, instead of setting their sights as high as they can (which is not to knock UMiami, just using it as an example of one of the combo programs). It is frankly a choice made out of fear, which is why I look down upon it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Allright, fair enough, you basically, you think that those people are all stupid. Well, at least we know where you stand. </p>

<p>Perhaps you'd like to come to the premed multiple-degree section of CC and tell those people how stupid you think they are. I'm sure that you would get quite an earful.</p>

42

<p>well as having gone through the process and being surrounded by colleagues who have as well, I think I have a little more authority on the matter than complaints and fears of college students or high school students who haven't. And I didn't call them stupid, but rather scared. </p>

<p>Sure medical school is not hard in terms of anxiety of flunking out (anymore), but it is far harder in terms of coursework and material. If you can't handle intro to bio and orgo, then don't go to medical school. I am somewhat dumbfounded by your attitude and your authoritarian manner of declaring the "facts" of medical school life and anachronisms of the admissions process, considering all you have is heresay evidence. I helped serve on an admissions committee for a medical school, and coursework IS indeed heavily factored in the decision. I don't know where you are coming from, but it isn't from knowledge nor experience of this process, that's for sure from what you write. I actually think the process for admission to medical school is the best because it actually weighs the interview quite heavily, which means one's personality and passion can be a major factor - things which can't come out in a written application. I think of all the applications, the medical school app is the most well rounded - it would be hard to fake it or pad your application so to speak.</p>

43

<p>
[quote]
well as having gone through the process and being surrounded by colleagues who have as well, I think I have a little more authority on the matter than complaints and fears of college students or high school students who haven't. And I didn't call them stupid, but rather scared.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ok, so perhaps you could tell me why is it that an eminent poster here at CC, molliebatmit, has herself admitted that she probably couldn't have gotten admitted to any of the top med-schools, despite having gotten into numerous PhD biology programs (including the PhD program at Harvard Medical School, but not the MD program at HMS). Are you saying that she's scared or misinformed?</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=50029&page=5%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=50029&page=5&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I think it's pretty clear. She has a 3.4/4 GPA. It ain't exactly easy to get into a top MD program with that kind of GPA. </p>

<p>Nor is she the only one. Another eminent poster on CC, Ben Golub, has said several times that if you want to go to med-school, you probably shouldn't go to his school (Caltech) because you may not get a great GPA there. Is he also misinformed or scared? </p>

<p>Besides, if what you are saying is really all true, then you are basically saying that those med-schools that offer those BS/MD programs are simply doing a disservice to the medical profession. So perhaps you should advocate shutting all of these programs down. Either these programs are offering something useful to some people, or they are not. If they are not, then there really should be no reason for these programs to exist, right?</p>

44

<p>no, I'm saying she could get into a medical school that is top20/40. Maybe she can't get into hopkins. But its not like the BS/MD programs have stellar medical schools. NW is the best and it is barely top 20. Brown? PSU? UMiami? Give me a break. I am not going to read the link, but I seriously doubt she got rejected from the likes of the middle second tier/upper third tier, which includes all of the above. Did she get into a BS/MD program and gave it up? That would be relevant. Otherwise these examples are not contradictory to my statement that Harvard is pretty much a guaranteed ticket to medical school for the capable student. </p>

<p>Should pre-meds stay away from princeton because of grade deflation. whooo, scary!!! That must be why no one from princeton went to medical school last year. And I have two friends who went to Brown PLME and regretted it... etc. Frankly Sakky, you are limited to your computer interaction with collegeconfidential and a circumstantial experience with the md admissions process.</p>

<p>I have a strong distaste for these programs because they feed off the fears of the top candidates and they make them settle early on for maybe not as good as they could have done. But whatever, a medical school is a medical school, right? sure... I wouldn't shut them down. Its not like they are pumping out bad doctors. No, on the contrary, its a way that average medical schools can fill their classes with stars.</p>

<p>I am a strong believer in the american model of going to college and then going to medical school. I feel the same way towards the european model of entering medical school at 18 as I do towards these BS/MD programs. I feel though that the latter are better solely because you can get out of them if you don't want to be a doctor and be none the worse for your time (you still get a bachelors).</p>

45

<p>sakky: Rivers Cuomo did not drop out. He just recently graduated with Phi Beta Kappa honors in English. As for James Murdoch, well, doesn't he have significant ties with a certain Rupert Murdoch? He comes from an old money family anyway.</p>

46

<p>I turned harvard down for brown PLME. I have to say what made PLME more valuable for me was not so much that it was a "bird in the hand" but that it would (i felt) allow me to have a happier and more well-rounded undergraduate experience. When i visited harvard, talked to pre med students, sat in on discussions about pre-med life, and read related material, students just seemed stressed, weary, cynical and limited. They didn't seem to enjoy studying the science as much as they enjoyed racking up statistics for med school. The pre-med advisors kept listing things students needed to do, not necessarily to become better doctors, but to enhance their resumes for med-school. For example, yes you could in fact study abroad as a pre-med, but you should really go to sweden where you could spend a lot of time in a lab. You should spend your summers doing research. You should start thinking about MCAT prep early, etc. As someone more interested in primary care and public policy than research, this didn't appeal so much to me. While all these things would indubitably help students learn a lot, I don't think they necessarily help students become BETTER doctors. Anyone who goes through a decent med school (assuming they actually try at it) is going to acquire the skill set necessary to being a good doctor. a BA/MD or BS/MD program often releases the superficial pressures of med school applications/mcat studying and allows students to pursue what they are truly interested in. i think the greater freedom allows people to truly decide what they want to do and who they want to be. of course, its not like the BA/MD programs or the med schools are easy - they're going to be rigorous enough that students are going to have to decide if they're on the right path. if one is sure he/she can be happy at a certain college and med school, the multiple degree program seems to me to provide the best opportunity for broad learning and, perhaps, happiness. But then again, im kind of biased.</p>

47

<p>Sure sounds like "bird in the hand" to me. Doesn't that mean making a choice that may be premature, but theoretically reduces risk, stress and worry?</p>

48

<p>haha, what i mean to say is that the benefit goes beyond having "a bird in the hand," assuming the "two in the bush" is the hypothetical better med school that one would get into were one to go the typical pre-med route. Because i think the undergrad experience is so much better with a BA/MD program, the bird in the hand is worth MORE than two in the bush.</p>

49

<p>Chacon a son gout</p>

50

<p>Byerly--
Phonetically OK, but "Chaqu'un a son gout"</p>

51

<p>Both of you are wrong. It's "chacun </p>

52

<p>
[quote]
The same analysis holds when comparing Ivy students with students who could have gone to the Ivies but chose lesser schools. Those latter students chose lesser schools for a reason. Hence, they are not comparable

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You left out a very obvious reason, i. e financial. Students from many upper middle class and middle class families opt to choose to go to a state flagship university on a full ride rather than incur 130K or so debt. This is especially true in California, Michigan and perhaps Virgina which have good state universities (Public Ivies if you will). I choose to go to University of Michigan on a full ride (in fact I would get a few thousand dollars back each year) rather than pay 130K or so to go to Penn or Columbia. During my honors orientation at U of M, I met 6 others who had chosen Michigan over an Ivy League school. The daughter of Alumni interviewer in our area chose Michigan over Harvard. University of Florida offers full ride to National Merit Finalist, and I am sure that a few that chose that option could have chosen to go to an Ivy League school. These days job security is fickle, and if you have been through a situation where a parent has lost a job, you would understand these decisions. Northstarmom has a good thread in the Parent's section on this. The examples you mentioned are probably very few in numbers. I believe the financial reason is probably the overwhelming reason for students choosing a state university over an Ivy League. I will grant you that the state university chosen would probably be a 'Public Ivy', but that is not the point of contention here.</p>

<p>In any case, wasn't it Brown's adcom who mentioned this year that they could have filled three classes and not suffered a drop in quality. Harvard's admission office probably could have filled a few more. There are so many more qualified applicants these days that choosing one over the other based upon some nuances in application is an exercise in futility. You would get just about the same result if you programmed the requirements of various departments and individual types in a computer (personality tests etc) and let it spit out the class. You may continue to differ me on that but you are entitled to your opinion (as I am to mine).</p>

53

<p>Translation, please?</p>

54

<p>Ohio mom -- Loosely...it's the idiom "each to his own" . (I don't "do" accent marks on the computer...but I think there's a " ' " in Chaqu'un, because it's a contraction of two words: Chaque un.)</p>

55

<p>To each his own- different strokes for different folks. de gustibus non est disputandum.</p>

56

<p>marite is absolutely right. To respond to thequaker's post about pre-med students, I think it is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I have enjoyed my pre-med classes this year (Life Sciences 1a and Chemistry 7). </p>

<p>I learned so much about science and how it really applies to everyday life around us. I definitely try and steer away from the competitive nature of pre-med students and really try to let my interests carry in the class. It has most definitely served me well, as I received A- both semesters without any major science background (our school had zilch APs). </p>

<p>In fact, our Organic Chemistry sequence is loved by everyone here, and the Chemistry 17/27 teachers are absolutely fantastic (minus the Spring 2006 Chemisry 27 professor). I'm actually looking forward to Chemistry 17 and 27, although I know it will take over my life, I know that I will have a lot of fun - I have not met one person that did not like the Chem 17/27 sequence.</p>

<p>In addition, the basic-calculus physics classes for pre-med and life sciences students are being revamped into Physical Sciences 2 and 3, which I really look forward to taking in my junior year, after taking Physical Sciences 1 (aka Chemistry 7), which I had a lot of fun in, actually.</p>

<p>I have found that the pre-med advisors here have your best interests in mind. They put me on the right track with my classes and extracurricular activities. I had one schedule in mind that they said was too rigorous for me (I come from a strong humanities high school - again, no science APs whatsoever), so I changed around my schedule to include a lower-level math class and also fulfilling just my chemistry requirement my first year. This has provided me with a GPA that really puts me in the range of any good medical school, which I'm very thankful for - and I still have a huge social life and am able to set aside weekends and Friday nights for my friends and all the amazing things that go on here during the weekend.</p>

<p>Being a doctor means you have to have an interest in research; medicine is all about asking questions and really exploring the unknown, whether it be primary care, public policy, surgery, the business side of medicine, etc. </p>

<p>With a 93% placement rate into medical schools, I think that the pre-med advisors know what they're doing. In addition, the 7% that do not get into any school is because they applied to all "reaches" or ended up applying to only 5 to 10, which is not that many when it comes to med school admissions.</p>

<p>Yes, it can get competitive, but no one is going to STOP you from doing the best that you can. Remember, if the competition gets really bad (again, in the eye of the beholder - I have friends who I'm close with that are also pre-med and we always help each other out), you still have so many resources available to you. You have the Bureau of Study Counsel and you can get a tutor at a reduced rate of $4/hr (if you're on fin. aid, you can get that covered), you have your professor's OH, which can help you more than just with a concept or two, and you have your teaching fellow's help available.</p>

57

<p>Nice try, 2boysinma, but the French language, pace Descartes, is not logical:</p>

<p>Chacun </p>

58

<p>xjayz - sounds much better than the impression i got! it's great that you're enjoying it so much. I agree with byerly et al that it's different for every person. While i know i want to be a doctor, I personally just don't tend to enjoy science classes / lab settings (my experience is mostly with chemistry.) consequently, I'm hoping that in the program at brown i'll be able to make my college experience more than just a means to an end. clearly it's already more than that for you, because you like the traditional pre-med environment. what i like about the ba/md program, though, is that it gives me a lot more flexibility to decide for myself which classes will fit my own style of learning and enhance my own understanding of science and medicine. as i evolve as a student i can design my schedule to fit even better without having to worry so much about conforming to others' traditional requirements or expectations. but yeah, its completely different for each person.</p>

59

<p>There sure are a lot of Google listings for "Chacon a son gout" as I spelled it ... even listing entirely in French.</p>

60

<p>"Chacun </p>