<p>We know a family who moved to Cambridge when the son was accepted to Harvard. Son is now in med school doing well, as is the family. He did manage to survive the micromanaging. He was much later than most kids in meeting certain adult milestones, but his fine. Another moved when son went to Penn State Honors College. So son could commute. So far, so good. He too is in med school. I could go on. But then every single one of these kids were exceptionally high achievers and it could not have been purely their parents help (or maybe hinderance) thata made them successful. At other levels, I don't know. But what I have seen has certainly gone the opposite of my predictions.</p>
<p>I know a reknown surgeon who needs a guide outside of the hospital. A famous conductor who needs full time practical help. These are prodigies that never grew up in some ways, but I think they are also handicapped in some way too, and it was not their parents overinvolvement that they are the way they are, but their parents overinvolvement ensured that their gifts came to full bloom despite their unawareness issues. No way those two navigated their way through the training needed to get where they are without heavy support from parents. Thankfully they were good enough at what they do that someone else took them on after parents let go. Most of us are not lucky enough to be so talented, but there are kids that may need help longer than others and more intensively, to get to a certain achievement level. I don't know the answer, but I wish I could have micromanaged more with my older ones., even while I wonder if I micromanaged too much. LOL.</p>
<p>foxdie
There are 3+ million HS seniors every year and a few thousand of their parents, including me, reading and posting on CC. I wish there were far more parents involved on CC. Your statement about parents applies equally to guidance counselors. Don't they do a considerable amount on behalf of their kids (students)?</p>
<p>I was raised in a very busy 60's household where I was pretty much left to my own devices--except that I was pressured to get a job at age 10--which I did. I'd say the prevailing parental attitude was: "Second or third tier of any category is good enough".</p>
<p>Fair call by my parents but when I got my chance, I decided that I wanted my children to have the best in a few of categories: education, books, medicine, family travel and fresh food. </p>
<p>Delivering the best involves personal attention--call it 'over-involvement' if you will. I will accept that tag because I am pleased with the results of my endeavors. I have no worries about the independence or overall capability of my children. I do not expect to see either move back home at any stage.</p>
<p>Even though I worked from the age of 10--both of my children have already surpassed my worklife accomplishments--as well as my sporting, travel, academic and social accomplishments.</p>
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Uh, what does Jesus have to do with it?
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Yes, hello. Thank for commenting but my question doesn't concern parental discussion. But instead excessive involvement</p>
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I think you're talking about the exception and not the rule regarding parental involvement.</p>
<p>This is a Parents forum. And most of us here are parents. I like "chatting" with others who are in the same place in life that I am. I actually lurk more than I contribute because there are a lot of smart people out there that I can learn from.</p>
<p>Take away what is valuable to you; discard the rest. And don't read what you consider to be tripe.
Colorado Mom, please there's no need to get defensive. I realize this is the parents forum (thats why I posted this here). I anticipated many disgruntled and defensive parents, but in this case you may heed your own advice. My questions pertain to excessive parental involvement, not discussion amongst parents</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are 3+ million HS seniors every year and a few thousand of their parents, including me, reading and posting on CC. I wish there were far more parents involved on CC. Your statement about parents applies equally to guidance counselors. Don't they do a considerable amount on behalf of their kids (students)?
I agree. But again, the question is not parental involvement, but excessive involvement, as described above.</p>
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I dunno, I've certainly encountered a lot of people that would be at a total loss as to how to conduct their everyday lives if their parents suddenly died, or something. People who are adults, technically, and think it's funny that they have absolutely no idea how to cook, people who cart their laundry home every week because they don't know how to operate a washing machine (and apparently, can't figure it out just by looking at it). Of course, my parents weren't much involved in my college decisions because they weren't aware that they were expected to be. </p>
<p>I used to have a friend who goes to her school because her mother wanted her to go to school close to home and her dad wanted her to go to a prestigious school, so she stuck with the nearest prestigious school. If they call her and say, hey you haven't been home in a few weeks, she drops everything and goes home. If she doesn't go home, they go and visit her. If you ask her why she picked her major, she says, "my parents wanted me to be a ___". If you ask her if she likes it, she says yeah I guess it's ok. If you ask her what she wants to do, it's always "well, my parents want..." Plans to go on living in the dorms, even in grad school, because the low responsibility is the closest thing to having mommy around to do everything for her. She doesn't have to be bothered with trifles like how much things cost and how much money she has because while she has a work study job, if she runs out of money she can just ask her parents for more. The only time I successfully managed to get out of her what SHE would prefer to do, she wanted to do something like become a starving poet and live in LA with all the wonderful liberal creative people. Lacking a sense of reality, much? Maybe if she was 15 it would be ok, but I don't think that level of independence-avoidance is healthy when you're into your 20's.
<p>......I know a reknown surgeon who needs a guide outside of the hospital. A famous conductor who needs full time practical help. These are prodigies that never grew up in some ways, but I think they are also handicapped in some way too, and it was not their parents overinvolvement that they are the way they are, but their parents overinvolvement ensured that their gifts came to full bloom despite their unawareness issues.....Most of us are not lucky enough to be so talented, but there are kids that may need help longer than others and more intensively, to get to a certain achievement level. I don't know the answer, but I wish I could have micromanaged more with my older ones., even while I wonder if I micromanaged too much. LOL.
Another useful comment and interesting opinion. Basically you're saying that two students you knew with excessive parental involvement got into medical school, including harvard? Thats an interesting measure of success, but my argument is that talented young adults will succeed without the potentially-handicapping effects of excessive parental involvement. I'm not talking about college or graduate school admissions. Furthermore I think successful innovation and progress in society cannot be achieved my overly dependent adults. </p>
<p>Also, my questions really only pertain to the talented/exceptional kids usually discussed on such forums. I agree with you that children with handicaps or weaknesses need extra support.</p>
<p>A few vague criticisms and dull quipps but also many interesting comments like those from cpthouse. Thanks for the replies.</p>
<p>Foxdie, your comments and thread are most relevant as many parents wonder the same thing: are they over involved and overindulgent ? Are we raising a generation of helpless people? At the same time, we wonder if we are involved enough, do we do enough? A priviliged dilemma, I admit. My parents were too challenged with their own lives to worry about their kids. I am a parent with who had her kids spread out, so I have kids who are now in adulthood (theoretically) while I still have some that are children at home in school yet to apply to college. I see things differently now than I did with the older ones, as I see the results rolling in. I remember parents, people critisizing the behaviour and reactions about kids and their parents who were outside the "norms". Most of those kids with "issues' and parents who were not addressing them "correctly" have turned out just fine. As we move into the next age range, many of those over involved parents with spoiled kids, not necessarily the same group as those toddlers I described, again were critisized with dire predictions. Most of those kids have turned out just fine. During highschool, I saw the same thing. Parents who micromanaged to a point that professionals made dire predictions. Again, most of these things did not happen, if any. The kids who seem to have had the most problems were the ones whose parents were uninvolved, unaware, and, those kids with mood disorders that seem to hit sporadically. Then of course the usual customers: kids who seemed to always be in trouble with authorities from day one with no action taken from parents in terms of getting professional help and not much care either.
I wonder how much effect at all we have on our children, but at the same time see that not being involved is definitely a good thing. One paradox after another.</p>
<p>Not defensive at all, foxdie. I just like to come here and get answers. Sometimes I don't even know the questions until I sign in!</p>
<p>I think you do bring up a good point - there are some excessively involved parents out there. I just don't happen to think most the the people who regularly post here are that way. The excessively involved ones wouldn't have the TIME - they're too busy plotting their kid's next move.</p>
<p>At least I wasn't one (patting self on back here in semi-self-mocking way). D chose the schools she applied to, wrote the essays, did all the applications, got the recs, etc. When it came down to the end, she had some nice options (Georgetown EA, UCLA, and UC-Boulder). For a variety of reasons, she went to Boulder and is wonderfully happy and challenged. And it was all HER decision. H and I had our opinions, but it came down to what she wanted.</p>
<p>They are the ones that go to the orchestral performances from Elementary-HS, 2 hours early and reserverve the front rows for their precious darlings' fans. </p>
<p>They demand that the world revolves around their incredibly special child, so the school district should grant them access to any teachers that they request.</p>
<p>You get the drift........</p>
<p>From our experience with OIPs, we have surmised that they need to get their own lives, and guide their childrens' lives, not live them.</p>
<p>Here are some "notes" from abroad that might make us all feel a little better. My husband is from India and a close friend of mine's husband is from Italy. These two guys have a hard time understanding why we moms don't want to support our kids for their entire lives. For example, when I mention our daughter's upcoming graduation from college in terms of her self-reliance and our years of supporting her coming to an end, he looks at me as if I'm completely selfish! My friend's husband does the same to her. </p>
<p>When we lived in Latin America, we learned it is quite common for kids to live at home UNTIL THEY GET MARRIED, which can be in their late twenties or later.</p>
<p>And . . . my husband and I are "watching over" the 24-year old son of old friends from a Mediterranean country, who is here in MN to study. He is a delightful young man, very respectful and obedient to his parents (see any contrast to American kids here?) but he is absolutely clueless about how to make decisions about transportation, apartments and choice of school programs. All those decisions were made for him back home, where he lived through college and beyond.</p>
<p>So hey, I think we're doing something right (although "right" is just a cultural concept, I know). Let's give ourselves a medium-sized, collective pat on the back!</p>
<p>Suna you hit the nail on the head. Interpreting overinvolvement and disfunctionality is going to differ not only among cultures but among individual family groups. When my kids were young, we tried to make them stoic when it came to injuries- minor scrapes, cuts... grit your teeth, slap some sav and a bandaid on it and shake it off. Others may see this as unfeeling. A member of my extended family has a son who still lives at home (unmarried) and he's in his 50's. For them it's a perfectly happy, functional arrangement. I would not like my son to be living with me all his life, however that doesn't necessarily make it wrong. There's never going to be agreement on overinvolvement, or whether or not someone has been made dysfunctional as a result.</p>
<p>One can also wonder about the cause & effect. Foxdie! is assuming that these kids are incompetent because their parents are overinvolved. I wonder if perhaps it's the other way around: the parents are overinvolved because the kids are incompetent! Perhaps it's just the way the kids are wired. And this would certainly explain the large number of kids with involved parents who turn out just fine.</p>
<p>Chedva: right on! Ultimately, a good parent responds to the need of the child. It is common for children to mature at different ages than others do--physically and also emotionally. And of course we have to take into consideration those children who may have some disabilities. My youngest will, because of her limitations, need a greater and longer-lasting degree of involvement than my other two.</p>
<p>Posting here keeps some of us from bugging our kids (more than we do), gives us an outlet when the nest is empty, helps kids who ask dumb questions on the college sites, gives us exposure/insight to life outside our little geographic corner of the country, etc.</p>
<p>Knowledge is power- wish I had this forum back when- there was no internet, not even PCs...think slide rule in college...</p>
<p>The gifted need as much help as the handicapped, I've posted about that elsewhere...</p>
<p>It doesn't matter what we do online, discusssing with each other- my mom kaffee klatched with the neighbor ladies, it kept their sanity when women weren't supposed to work outside the home and there were no second cars (we kids could never say "so and so's mom let her..." since the moms had already discussed and decided no)- consider this a very large kitchen table.</p>
<p>BTW OP - what are you wasting your time here for- don't you have better things to do? Not enough going on in your life? Go back outside and play with your friends... These forums are open to the public, you'd be surprised at how much was done for you by parents behind the scenes in your growing up years. Presumably you talk to your dormmates et al, guess what, older people also talk to each other... It is nicer to talk anonymously here than with people you or your kids know- maintains privacy et al.</p>
<p>Finally, it is nice to post here and imagine you are actually being listened to- my son won't and certainly never lets me manage his life.</p>
<p>As we know, every child is different and "one size" in terms of parental advice and involvement may/will not suit another child in the same family. But with that said, count me as one of the parents that provides plenty of advice (often based on research) that my two sons can take or leave (as "it's my life" as the saying goes). For instance, for one son who is exploring different career options I have set up informational interviews with professionals in law, marketing, accounting, and other areas. With some of this input from the professionals and his own decision process (partly assisted by his visiting with a career counselor - one of my employer's perks), he has ultimately decided to attend law school (not my career choice but his). The other son is more job-after-college focused so I have helped him especially with mock interviews and advising him where to research particular companies, etc. He also visited with a career counselor.</p>
<p>My son the future barrister is doing extremely well academically at college and is in a very good position to have solid law school choices (assuming he does well enough on the LSAT). As a high school senior, I helped point him toward the opportunities at his particular university but he is the one that has taken full advantage of them (including extra-curriculars). My other son has been the "steady Eddie" type of student who with some fits and starts will now be graduating in June. I offer plenty of advice to him but tailored to his interests.</p>
<p>Like lots of parents who provide extensive advice to their kids, I am one of those that wish it could have been provided to me way back when so some of my school of hard knocks experiences may have been avoided.</p>
<p>Lonestardad...that is exactly what we have done for our kids. It is also something neither one of us had available to us as young adults. With the right information our kids can be successful much sooner in their lives than having to make some unnecessary, unproductive sidesteps in their chosen paths.</p>
<p>Sometimes the intention of involved parents is to help lead their children towards greater independence. My husband has contacts through a friend that will allow my daughter to intern at a pretty major PR firm over the summer. (She is a high school junior.) My husband made the initial phone call to set up the internship, but now it is up to my daughter. True, she may at first need my help getting out the door properly dressed and making it on the train to the city on time each day, but after that she is on her own. Is this meddling, hovering or being over-involved? Ultimately she will do with this opportunity what she wants.The connections she makes, what she learns, and the recommendations she gets will all be of her own doing. I think she will be gaining far more independence this summer working in the "real world" than if I had her find a local job on her own in a camp (which she has done) or store with her friends in our town. And if I could help her (through connections) get her first job when she is out of college, I would not hesitate as long as she upholds her part of the bargain...which will always be to work hard and do her best!</p>