<p>They do tend to lock up those tests around here as well. They will let a parent look at the test in the Math Dept. office, with a teacher present. I always thought one of the purposes of a test was to find out a child’s weakness in order to focus on that weakness and improve. How can you do that when the tests are essentially unavailable?</p>
<p>I think the one factor people are forgetting in this Madison debate is that remedial math is not what most think it is, Algebra II is not really “remedial” if the purpose of the class is to cover a math credit for college for non-math dependent majors. Algebra II is sufficient math for say and English major. Our oldest had through pre-calculus in high school, school still required one semester of math for all kids. He took “Principals of Math” because it was easy. I am sure it could be considered “remedial” by some but the school suggests that class to any kid that doesn’t need math in their degree area, so what.</p>
<p>Then, you have to look at where a lot of these kids are coming from. Quite a few come from tiny schools in rural areas where they MIGHT have ONE math teacher and it’s a good chance that math teacher has 4 math classes and one or two science classes to teach. So, every student takes 9th grade math, 10th grade math, 11th grade math, 12th grade math. They might not have had the opportunity to TAKE any calculus in high school.</p>
<p>We have a friend that was a 4.0 grad from Notre Dame, majored in Math there too. He didn’t have an option to take any kind of calculus/pre-calculus in high school so he had to take what you are all calling 'remedial" math his freshman year. So, is he a remedial math student??</p>
<p>Then there are people like me that was jumping for joy because I didn’t have to take math in college AT ALL because I had enough math credits in high school 
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<p>Maybe that kid excelled in some of the other areas that executives reportedly prize? Or maybe not. Maybe he is also a bad collaborator, not a critical thinker and lacking in problem-solving skills. Maybe he acquires those skills on the job and commences a meteoric rise to the top. Maybe his true mediocrity catches up with him. But the people on this thread debating the rigors of math programs at this or that university are overlooking an important point from the article that launched this thread, namely that …</p>
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<p>My own limited experience with interns and entry-level staff has led me to believe that what college grads could really use more of is “the ability to communicate clearly and persuasively in writing.” Mind you, I’m not hiring engineers. I will say that a former BF of mine, who was happy to party his way to an engineering degree as a barely-B student at Johns Hopkins, says that his greatest advantage over other applicants has always been his ability to write well. I always did like the way he could use a semicolon.</p>
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<p>I know a couple people like that…they are CFO’s of a couple major companies now…did well enough in high school that they could slide through college–not at an “easy” college either but not MIT but had enough smarts and other skills that made them attractive to potential employers. They are doing very well for themselves, admit they were stupid in college, have kids of their own and would string their kids up by their toenails if they did the same :).</p>
<p>Then there are the kids that do that, get hired based on their college GPA and are gone within 3 months because they are still partying…</p>
<p>There is always a subtle undertone on threads like this that a super smart person earns top grades but at the cost of acquiring important-for-the-workplace social skills like colloboration and small talk, whereas the C student may neglect studies but uses that time to learn all the really essential people skills. These are stereotypes that simply don’t apply across the board. A kid might not develop super people skills by spending every free minute in the library, but how many work-place appropriate social skills are acquired watching TV shows like “Jersey Shore” or hanging out with drunk people at frat parties?</p>
<p>There are hard-working, top students with great social skills and some without. There are slacker C students with great social skills and some without.</p>
<p>I hear you on the “subtle undertone,” TheGFG. If I’m giving that off, I’m probably overcompensating, because until fairly recently I would have sniffed at anyone who wasn’t, ahem, as intellectual as I! (
I’m giving myself more intellectual bona fides than I deserve and making myself sound snootier than I ever was, but you catch my drift.) I think there are plenty of super-smart people who have it all, really I do. But I often detect this subtext: “There are dumb people or otherwise unworthy people whose success mystifies me.” That attitude drives me up a wall! It’s so presumptuous. I’m not saying you subscribe to that thinking. I will say that in my job, rubbing shoulders with people who did not excel academically but have excelled in other ways has taught me a few lessons about what it means to be a good collaborator.</p>
<p>Oh, I plead guilty to being mystified by the success of dumb people, or rather how so many other people had to be oblivious enough to fail to notice their incompetence and promote them!</p>
<p>We’ll get our rewards in heaven, TheGFG. ;)</p>
<p>A C average isn’t indicative of being “dumb”, lazy maybe, but not dumb…if you need proof I will send along my son’s transcripts and his “test” scores . Surprisingly enough, his is a hard worker outside of college and is up for a promotion. He is training all of the new employees in his department since he figured our a new and efficient way to double their production, he just never liked sitting in a classroom…</p>
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<p>Even though an English major may not need any calculus or higher math for his/her major, wouldn’t it make sense for the student, if required to take a math course anyway, to take some potentially useful course like statistics (even calculus can be useful in some contexts)? Given the amount of statistics thrown around in general contexts, some knowledge of statistics would be quite useful to avoid being misled in daily life.</p>
<p>Indeed, psychology and behavior experiments described in Kahneman’s Thinking Fast and Slow and similar books often use simple math and probability problems to find examples of irrational “fast” thinking, presumably because math and statistics knowledge is weak enough that most people do not even realize that their first impression may be mathematically incorrect.</p>
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<p>Yes, he was, if you mean he had to take precalculus in college. Fortunately, it did not prevent him for excelling in math afterward.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, for a lot of students (unlike your example), poor math instruction in high school causes them to lose interest in math, shutting the door to many possible areas of study and occupation.</p>
<p>This is an article about some research that one of my college prof’s was part of. I think it has some good tips and information.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.ycp.edu/offices-and-services/academic-services/center-for-professional-excellence/research-&-resources/[/url]”>http://www.ycp.edu/offices-and-services/academic-services/center-for-professional-excellence/research-&-resources/</a></p>