<p>Windy,</p>
<p>Several posters have spent much time and energy attempting to give you information that they thought you ... would consider to help change your mind, </p>
<p>...you continue to be adversarial while everyone else attempts to patiently explain their personal experience to you. YOU are the one that continuously resents anyone offering a positive experience about Barnard.</p>
<p>dt123, I want to thank you for posting that GAO report -- I think that provides a definitive answer to the OP's question. </p>
<p>I have gone through it and have excerpted relevant parts below that I think are especially pertinent, with page references based on the PDF numbering. Here's the full report title & link:</p>
<p>GAO Report to Congressional Committees, September 2006
"HIGHER EDUCATION
Schools Use of the Antitrust Exemption Has Not Significantly Affected College Affordability or Likelihood of Student Enrollment to Date"</p>
<p>Link: <a href="http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06963.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06963.pdf</a></p>
<p>At page 11:
[quote]
We found virtually no difference in the amounts students and their families were expected to pay at schools using the exemption compared to similar schools not using the exemption. Average expected family contribution (EFC) for students accepted at schools using the exemption was $27,166 and for those accepted at comparable schools not using the exemption was $27,395 in school year 2005-2006 ....</p>
<p>we found that the variation in the EFC for a student who was accepted to several schools using the exemption was similar to the variation in EFC that same student received from schools not using the exemption. The variation in EFCs for these students was about $6,000 at both sets of schools. ...</p>
<p>For example, seven schools chose not to use the consensus method for considering home equity.
[/quote]
Page 12:
[quote]
We also found that low income students at schools using the consensus approach, compared to those at schools not using the consensus approach, received a significantly higher amount of total aid, which includes both grants and loans. However, the amount of grant aid that these students received did not significantly change, which suggest they likely received more aid in the form of loans, which they would need to repay. Additionally, implementing the consensus approach did not affect the likelihood of low-income or minority students enrolling at schools using the consensus approach compared to schools that did not.
[/quote]
Page 20:
[quote]
Twenty-five of 28 schools implemented the consensus approach; 3 did not. While 13 schools implemented all the elements of the consensus approach, the remaining schools varied in how they implemented the methodology. As shown in table 4 below, seven schools chose not to use the consensus approach method for accounting for family loan debt, home equity, and family and student assets.
[/quote]
Page 21:
[quote]
Among schools that partially implemented the consensus approach, many explained they did not fully implement the new methodology because it would have been too costly.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Windy, you said that you are concerned about minority enrollment. I would highly recommend that you download and review the GAO report that dt123 posted and that I quoted from above. You will see that the consensus methodology has hurt black enrollment at consensus methodology schools. Blacks actually have lost ground with grant money at those schools; on average they have lost $6500 in grant aid; and they are 26% less likely to enroll at a 568 school; the main beneficiaries of the methodology have been Asians, hispanics, and middle class families. This data can be found from Table 5 at page 27, and the data table at page 56. </p>
<p>At page 26:
[quote]
As shown in table 5, while we found that the consensus approach resulted in higher need-based grant aid awards for some student groups (middle income, Asian students, and Hispanic students) compared to similar students at schools that were not using the consensus approach, this increase was likely offset by decreases in non-need-based grant aid, such as academic or athletic scholarships.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
dt123, I want to thank you for posting that GAO report -- I think that provides a definitive answer to the OP's question.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yep, Calmom, and that was done as early as post number 4 in this thread, unless you happen to believe there are more than one recent GAO report on the 568 Group or more than one United States Government Accountability Office. </p>
<p>Just as for figuring out the FAFSA and Federal EFC, this is far from being arcane voodoo. All it takes is knowing how to locate the correct sources, and ... quoting the sources accurately. Of course, you DID know that when telling another poster that, "generally when you quote from another post its a good idea to attribute the source."</p>
<p>Just for the record my quote was in " " 's and plain to see as such. Interesting form of arguement that some utilize here, mistate what someone says and then challange it, or scold them for failing to do something that they had in fact done. Xiggi most of us did notice your link to the GAO report those many moons ago and thank you for it. With two children at 568 schools I have never found the 568 methodology difficult to understand. Xiggi you offered valuable insight and linked to the GAO report (post 4)and I commented that in my experience and observation the application of the approach is conditioned by professional judgement independently excercised at each school (post 5). That kind of covers all the bases. It certainly seemed sufficient for the 5 specific schools that where the concern of the op IMO.</p>
<p>Just a note: Xiggi is on my ignore list so I don't see his posts or the links in them. I replied to the first post I saw with the GAO report link and that's why I thanked the person who posted it.</p>
<p>I've gone back and read the post now, and it did not make the point that dt123 made and that I made with specific excerpts, which is that the 568 group schools do not apply a consistent methodology and they do not all adhere to the consensus standard as to home equity, specifically because they don't want to dispense more aid dollars. -->"For example, seven schools chose not to use the consensus method for considering home equity." "Among schools that partially implemented the consensus approach, many explained they did not fully implement the new methodology because it would have been too costly."</p>
<p>I am so impressed by how well many of the posters in this thread understand financial aid, and finances generally. Unfortunately, we have never had sufficient finances for me to have to learn about retirement accounts, investments, and all those acronyms like IRA, 401K, 529, etc.</p>
<p>I do have a question about home equity though. I know some schools cap it as an asset in some way relative to income, and others don't... at least not routinely. Our gross income is less than 60K, but the value of our little old house has gone up quite a bit due to a rise in real estate value over the years since we bought it. When I put our data into a financial aid estimator, our expected contribution is MUCH higher when it's not capped (not surprisingly). But it's so much higher that we would not be able to afford the school at all, in spite of their statement that they meet 100% of need. My question is, do those schools that don't cap home equity ever do so on a case-by-case basis? Has anyone ever had this happen?</p>
<p>Obviously we don't NEED to attend such a school, although there is one that one of my kids would likely get into and would love to go to, if it were financially possible. If not, I'm not saying she should be able to, I understand there are lots of schools that are just unaffordable for lots of people and that's just the way it is. I'm fine with that, but only trying to understand if the home equity policy is ever flexible in anyone's experience.</p>
<p>You simply need to be clear with your kid what you can pay, and make sure there are financial safety colleges on the list -- and then apply to the other colleges and see what happens. </p>
<p>Also, go to this web page: FinAid</a> | Calculators | Federal Housing Index Calculator</p>
<p>This will let you figure out your home equity using an alternative formulation - the Federal Housing Index. This formulation really favors those of us who live in a house that was originally purchased for far less than current market value, in an inflated market. I know that this is the formula that my daughter's college uses and is probably one reason that their financial aid was so much better.</p>
<p>I am in the same situation as you are -- if you looked at "market value" and did not cap my home equity, I could never afford to pay for college. However, NO college that purported to meet 100% of need did that -- that is, I think the online calculators were coming out saying we should pay $33K and no college expected us to pay that much. </p>
<p>If your daughter is only looking at one private college, then I would suggest that you simply call them and ask about your situation, how they generally treat home equity and how they determine home valuation. </p>
<p>Also -- is the college a need-only college or do they give merit aid? The minute you throw merit aid into the mix the aid packages potentially start looking a lot better -- my d. had a more generous offer from Fordham - which does not guarantee to meet full need but does offer merit aid as well as need-based aid-- than from Chicago, a 568 methodology school.</p>
<p>rentof2</p>
<p>Something you might wish to consider that we found very useful. When my youngest was going through the process we were as many parents and their children were, finding it difficult to get apples to apples comparison of schools. Through a great deal of hard work, perseverance, genetics (have to take some credit LOL) and luck my child had a number of choices. Full academic rides to a couple of flagship state u's, merit packages (not linked to our ability to pay) and athletic scholarships to others, and then the 568 schools. Ivy's and Little Ivies don't offer athletic scholarships or merit based awards, but if that is where you want to go you must learn the nuances of the ways that they construct packages. It is not pure math, they use judgment and that is not one dimensionally applied. Some of it has to do with how intent the school is on having that student attend, recruited athlete, oboe player, etc., some of it has to do with how much money not only you have but they have, Princeton, Amherst, Williams, Davidson, are schools that have completely eliminated loans from fin aid packages, top tier schools with vast resources and a commitment to diversity participate in programs like Quest bridge where they seek out minority students. Harvard which has done away with early action (another commitment to diversity) still issues "highly likely letters" in the fall in order to secure athletes. Admission is in some cases a two way street. We had the opportunity and good fortune to work with Howard Greene and Matthew Greene on the selection processes (who have written a number of well known books on admission to elite schools). After lots of number crunching they offered a different view, look at college if you can not just as the cost of attending, but the value of that experience for the life time that comes after, and not just in financial terms. Amortize the cost if you will over the 50 years (or more we hope) that comes after that experience. In the end my youngest choose Williams, in my opinion one of the finest schools in the country. The cost is high and comparing spending 200K plus as opposed to a free ride at UVA (a great school), is open to interpretation. The joy my child expresses when we speak of the learning and the personal growth taking place up in the Berkshires.. priceless.Talk to the schools, if you are lucky enough to be accepted at one of these fine institutions, they want you to attend and the professionals ( I stress that because all of us posting here are amateurs no matter how well intended ) there will work with you. Good luck.</p>
<p>Mythmom...just for the record...regarding your statement...and I quote...</p>
<p>" I actually spoke to someone at Barnard today about your criticism and they said they do not "recruit" minorities for their stats, preferring to support the kids who are from the neighborhood, just as Columbia does."</p>
<p>Columbia is an active participant in the QuestBridge program. We should all be sure of our sources, readers may actually take some of these postings at face value..</p>
<p>Partner</a> School: Columbia University</p>
<p>Another shining example that Barnard and Columbia are not at all the same. Columbia's commitment to diversity is second to none, is worthy of praise and should not be mistated, and is in the opinion of many scholars the bedrock of Columbia's Teachers College the finest such institution in the nation.</p>
<p>So Windy, is the "something" you wish rentof2 to consider this: that the cost (and benefits) of an expensive education can be amortized over the rest of the student's life?</p>
<p>dt123...</p>
<p>To the best of my knowledge none of our children requested to be here. IMO we owe them whatever we are capable of providing. For my dad that was working for 45 years in a factory so the first generation of his family could attend college. For me it was Wall Street so I suppose his investment in me was amortized over my life. It is not the same for everyone, but we try to do the best we can. And at the best schools in the country the opportunities for minorities and those less financially secure have never been better as they endeavor to atone for past injustices.. For the middle class it is the most financially trying time ever... and that would lead to a whole different discussion...</p>
<p>Thank you Calmom and Windy for your responses. We are going to apply to a number of places, including the local public university where my daughter can live at home and the tuition is more manageable. She is an excellent student with excellent test scores and some special talents, and would likely be accepted other places that are a better. (The local state college is a nice school, but I guess it's what you'd call a C-student type of school.)</p>
<p>When she gets back her aid offers we will compare them. I was just asking about the flexibility of the home equity calculations because I wasn't sure how set in stone these policies are for schools that don't promise to cap that asset. I gather they're not as fixed as the estimate calculators might suggest? </p>
<p>Windy, it was the Williams online calculator that gave us such a high EFC. I didn't know whether I should tell my daughter to not even bother applying there.</p>
<p>Calmom, thank you for the link to the housing value estimator. I tried it and it comes in much lower than the actual amount our house would likely sell for. (Not that we're going anywhere. Can't afford to move! LOL) Is it really okay to use that figure for financial aid purposes?</p>
<p>rentof2...</p>
<p>The online Williams calculator does not cap home equity, interestingly the Amherst one does. In reality both schools are willing to work with you. They are smart and concerned professionals. The key part is getting accepted. It is not they are not concerned about the state of affairs in the costs of higher education in general, they will be happy to discuss the specifics if you get in. Pres. Shapiro of Williams is a noted expert on the subject and has written excellent pieces that are worth seeking out. Williams and Amherst "community build" when formulating a class of first years. I am admittedly biased but I think (as do many others) Williams offers the finest undergrad education in the country. In the snobbish community in which I live people almost faint when it comes up that your child goes to Williams, not that that is what education is about. By all means apply. If the school is a fit for your daughter and she has what they are looking for the economics will work out. When you consider that they review 8,000 or so apps for 530 spots the odds are never in anyones favor. When you then look at the fact that they admit 220 or so early which is most of the legacy, athletes, etc. the real odds are 310 spots out of 7500 apps. If she gets in it is highly unlikely than a fair package will not be worked out. The endowment is up to 1.9 billion and they kind of look at money differently. They figure it costs 80,000 per year for each student so they don't even make money on the kids paying full price. And don't sell state schools short, I did my undergrad at one as did many many people I ran into in the world of finance. Lots of different ways to get to where one is going.</p>
<p>Windy, I'm not selling state schools short. Like I said, it's a nice school, it's just that her grades and scores would get her in somewhere better, assuming we can afford it. Plus, she likes the LAC thing.</p>
<p>It's funny what you say about how people where you live as so impressed by Williams. Where I live they say "I've never heard of it. Where is it?" LOL.</p>
<p>Also the odds of getting accepted are indeed long, but the odds for getting accepted for the class of 2011 were actually 1194 out of 6448, according to the website. Of course the ED applicants throw this off, but you are comparing the number applied to the number attending, not the number accepted.</p>
<p>Still, I understand it's a tough go, and honestly we don't have any big agenda about Williams. My daughter likes it, and wants to apply, but I was only using it as an example to try to understand the flexibility of the home equity factor in financial aid.</p>
<p>You are right about last years numbers, I was guessing at this year based on the increases seen in ea apps. I hold the view that some have about the Ivies et al schools in terms admission percentages. Some where out there and maybe your child is one of them, are a group of super students that get above 1550 on the SAT which in the case of these schools are the top 25% of the class. Duke for example had 1300 such apps in 2006. These kids apply to the same schools HPYS etc and get accepted at almost all of them. They show up as accepted students at 7 or more schools but only go to one. Hence the lower yields and the illusion that it is easier to get in. I got carried away about Williams, and you are right that outside the northeast it is less well known, maybe because all the Ivies are east coast schools and get more press, but I think the same is true of most of these schools, if you get in they will work with you on home equity. Before acceptance they will simply state the party line. As one in Harvard’s admit office said to me, why get in an argument when the odds are the student won't get in anyway.</p>
<p>With income under $60,000 well-endowed schools should give you a very sweet deal, and your kid no or very-low student loans. All the very top schools are interested in students from families with incomes at or below that level, since most of their students are from upper-middle class or richer families.
[quote]
Reinforcing its commitment to opportunity and excellence across the economic spectrum, Harvard today (March 30) announced a significant expansion of its 2004 financial aid initiative for low- and middle-income families. Beginning with the class admitted this week, parents in families with incomes of less than $60,000 will no longer be expected to contribute to the cost of their children attending Harvard. In addition, Harvard will reduce the contributions of families with incomes between $60,000 and $80,000.
[/quote]
School for free! :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is it really okay to use that figure for financial aid purposes?
[/quote]
Since I KNOW after talking to Barnard that they use that figure, that is the one I use. Actually, they have one that comes in even lower -- I'm not sure why, but they did tell me they use that formulation. I just enter that in the Profile and the in the part of the Profile where you can make extra comments or notes I indicate the source of the home equity. (Like a footnote)</p>
<p>Since your daughter is applying to multiple colleges, that is what I would suggest you do -- you state the equity - then at the end of the form where you can make a comments, you tell them where you got the number. If a college has questions or disputes that, they can contact you and ask for clarification.</p>
<p>Thanks, Calmom. I'll tell them you said I should. ;)</p>
<p>Despite anxiousmom's post, I have to note that the reality is that the schools DO look at various factors -- my income is well under $60K -- and between all the issues that I have to deal with (noncustodial parent, self-employment, home equity) - my EFC is around $20K this year. I know kids who have been very disappointed with packages from Harvard or other Ivies because they expected more from the p.r., but for whatever reason their numbers didn't come out that way. </p>
<p>So I'm not saying that it isn't possible.... just don't bank on it. </p>
<p>I just figured out what I could pay including what I was willing to borrow, and then adopted a wait-and-see approach. </p>
<p>I do have a kid who is attending a "lesser" state public as well as my daughter at Barnard, and my son has had extraordinary opportunities via his CSU, admittedly because the academic expectations make it easier for him to distinguish himself as a student. But he likes his teachers (and does have a basis of comparison, as he spent his first 2 years at a private LAC). He'll graduate with honors and is positioned well for grad school or employment. </p>
<p>So I don't think any parent should fall into the trap of feeling guilty if they can't afford a private education. </p>
<p>Do keep in mind that if your daughter has the ability to get into an elite-level college or LAC, she may also qualify for good merit aid at many private colleges, and the preferential aid package you get when combining merit + need based aid can be very nice. So definitely encourage your daughter to look seriously at those safety or match/safety schools, especially if you are feel that your state university is geared to C students. In other words, your choice may be to pay something extra for an A student college, or pay much less for a B student college that might still be better academically than the C student public near your home.</p>