Explaining to Dad

Parents Forum
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<p>The duties of a professor include many things beyond teaching. One may compare an adjunct teaching 4-5 classes a semester with a teacher, but most students going to grad school wish to be tenure-track which involves university governance and research. If teaching college-level material is the goal, regardless of whether you never make more than $30,000 a year with little job security, then there’s no problem. However, that’s not the expectation that grad students have, but the nasty realization they encounter. Read the articles I listed and the comments, there’s a large disconnect between expectations and reality for prospective graduate students.</p>

<p>I agree with CalAlum that strong foreign language and communication abilities are beneficial, but, as a 28-30 year old finishing graduate school with no relevant work experience, you’d be competing for positions with 22 year olds in the marketing jobs that you describe (who could just as easily have the language skills, but also business experience). By all means pursue German, but consider this: if the end goal is a marketing position at an international company, is a Ph.D. in history the best way to get there? And following from that, if there are no faculty jobs in history (I don’t believe this, but the statistics show they are quite few and transitioning to part-time adjunct positions rather than tenure-track), why pursue the Ph.D.? Consider that by 28 you could have 4 years of industry experience and be finished with an MBA from a top business school (in international business with language skills if you desire). Which person would you hire?</p>

<p>It’s the same argument many use for law school: a law degree can provide useful skills no matter what field you end up in. However, is it worth the investment of time and money to get a degree that is fundamentally a professional qualification for lawyers if one does not want to be a lawyer?</p>

<p>If one is independently wealthy, then pursuing a Ph.D. purely for the intellectual growth and sense of fulfillment it may bring is fine. But don’t expect it to lead you to the secure, professorial position that you may be expecting.</p>

<p>You don’t need to take my word for it, I’m simply stating what I’ve found through extensive research into the topic. The situation for the humanities is very different from that faced by current professors. See the comment below.</p>

<p>

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<p>“MBA is related to the PhD in Economics”</p>

<p>Quibble. The analog for a PhD in economics would be a terminal MA in Econ. An MA in econ is a much more marketable degree than I realized when I chose an MBA instead.</p>

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<p>

What did you learn that made you change your mind? Wouldn’t the two degrees generally lead to different types of positions (e.g., MA in econ leading to quantitative analysis, as it focuses on that, unlike an MBA).</p>

<p>In any case, I was comparing a Ph.D. in history to an MBA – economics would be a different matter.</p>

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<p>“What did you learn that made you change your mind?”</p>

<p>At the time I thought the main goal of post grad study in econ was to get Phd and teach, with possibly consulting on the side. Since then, I have seen many Phd and terminal MA’s in econ who have great careers in econ (NOT management) consulting, and in govt. </p>

<p>" Wouldn’t the two degrees generally lead to different types of positions (e.g., MA in econ leading to quantitative analysis, as it focuses on that, unlike an MBA)."</p>

<p>Yes. Thats my point. I got an MBA, did finance, and then switched careers to more econ focused. I had not even considered an MA in econ as a possibility, and had I done so I could saved myself a lot of agony.</p>

<p>"In any case, I was comparing a Ph.D. in history to an MBA – economics would be a different matter. "</p>

<p>I was focusing on the guy from UMd, who seemed to be saying that there should be more terminal science masters degrees, to do all those things that require post grad science but not a Phd. he made an analogy to Phds in Econ and MBAs. My point was that there precisely ARE many such things in the world of econ, and that an MA in econ is a better match for them than an MBA. (there are also DBAs - doctors of business admin, who mainly teach at at B schools - odd again, that an ex chancellor at UMd didnt think of them in this context)</p>

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<p>OP - A semester abroad can (and very likely will) change your life. If none of the zero-cost options suggested above work, I’d suggest doing the semester abroad and paying for the “extra” semester by taking out a loan. But talk to your Dad first. I suspect he’ll respect your strongly held views, and the two of you can therefore can find the basis for a compromise. Good luck!</p>

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<p>

What horrible advice.</p>

<p>Value = what you get for what you pay. Saving money is sometimes a sucker’s pitch; this is where judgment comes in.</p>

<p>I’m firmly with those who argue for the fourth year of college. And do the year abroad program if you like. And “Go Bryn Mawr.”</p>

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<p>Thanks to everyone who’s chimed in to give some advice so far!</p>

<p>I haven’t had a chance to talk to my dad yet, but I did talk to my mom about my concerns. Her opinion is, however, to “take it one semester at a time” - which is a bit difficult to do, since if I am graduating early, I need to start fulfilling requirements ASAP. What I did, however, realize I had forgotten and might factor in is that I have a sister in her junior year of high school interested in computer engineering - meaning, in two years, my parents will be paying for two children in college at the same time. </p>

<p>I know some of you have brought international business, economics, or marketing into the discussion, I’m not particularly interested in either of those fields. </p>

<p>And since someone asked, no, I don’t plan on giving up on Russian, but I don’t know where it would fit in.</p>

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<p>@TheDad - I don’t claim that was my advice. I’m simply stating that in the end, if the parents feel that the money saved is worth it, that’s ultimately their right. It’s certainly not my place to tell them how to spend or not spend their money, and it seems that the money is the largest factor in this decision. Personally, I believe that the fourth year would be worth the cost.</p>

<p>@ClockworkKey - I don’t know enough about the situation to say anything definitively, but if you and your sister are both in undergrad at the same time, many colleges would take that into account, and it’s possible that one or both of you would qualify for financial aid during that time (again, depending on the situation; it depends on what your EFC is and the cost of the school your sister would attend). On the other hand, even if your parents are paying for graduate school for you, I don’t believe that money would be considered in financial aid for your sister, except for the decrease in assets.</p>

<p>I must echo myself and others on the thread to say that either a fourth year or significant work/research experience between undergrad and grad school would be beneficial for admission to a graduate school, but it also depends on whether you’re aiming for a PhD or MA right out of school.</p>

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<p>ClockworkKey,</p>

<p>if you are getting need based aid, having your sister in college at the same time will not change the total cost for your parents ( in that case graduating early will not save any money!)
From your post it sounded that whatever money your dad saves on your 4th year, he is willing to spend on your graduate school. If you plan on PhD in humanities or social sciences, it will be much wiser of you to invest in 4 years of college, and only go into a fully funded PhD program.</p>

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<p>Clockwork - I agree with NewHope that a semester abroad is likely to be life-changing. And I also think that graduating with your class - the cohort with whom you entered together as freshmen - at a school such as Bryn Mawr is profoundly life-impacting. At an average school, students drop in and stop out at will, and the quality of community membership among the class usually reflects that inconsistency. But at Bryn Mawr, 86% of the students stay to graduate, and I’d bet that at least 80% of the students graduate after staying together for four years. As TheDad noted, it’s all about value. And frankly, there’s not that much difference in value associated with majoring in one language over another - you can always pick up Russian fluency by other means. But a lot of the long-term value of a college such as Bryn Mawr is in the membership in a group of dynamic, motivated, and talented women. You can find good instruction at just about any college; that opportunity for membership among special peers is only available at special campuses.</p>

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<p>I am not so sure that a year abroad is not a waste of money (outside of language immersion, which can be achieved for much less than $50,000), unless it is a well structured program that is ran by your school, and matches your academic goals.</p>

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<p>I’m also in the 4th year camp, if you can swing it. And it sounds like you have a great, respectful relation with your dad so I suspect the conversation won’t be as hard as you are anticipating. As others have said, if a History degree is what you have in mind for grad school, most competitive programs will fully fund their students through grants, stipends, TAing, etc. (Perhaps this is something your dad’s not aware of?) Also, you mention your sister entering the tuition picture. Might that mean your family would then qualify for financial aid at Bryn Mawr and at whatever school your sister winds up at? (Not sure if this is the case at Bryn Mawr, but most of the info sessions I attended with S made it a point to say that if financial picture changes (due to change in income, sibling starting college, whatever), the Financial Aid package would be revisited and increased if necessary. Last thought: if for whatever reason you do end up graduating in three years instead of four, you might want to look into programs like Fulbright, etc. that provide funding for a year of research / teaching / learning in a foreign country. (I’m pasting info from Fulbright below). Good luck…</p>

<p>FULBRIGHT U.S. STUDENT PROGRAM OVERVIEW</p>

<p>“Educational exchange can turn nations into people, contributing as no other form of communication can to the humanizing of international relations.” - Senator J. William Fulbright, 1983.</p>

<p>If you:</p>

<pre><code> * Are a U.S. citizen, who
* Will have a bachelor’s degree by the beginning date of the grant, but will not have a doctorate degree as of October 18, 2010, and who is
* Thinking of studying, assistant-teaching English, or conducting research abroad
</code></pre>

<p>You could be one of more than 1,500 students who receive a Fulbright U.S. Student grant each year to go overseas.</p>

<p>The U.S. Student Fulbright Program:</p>

<pre><code> * Operates in more than 140 countries worldwide
* Awards grants in nearly all fields and disciplines, including the sciences, professional fields and Creative and Performing Arts
</code></pre>

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<p>I haven’t read the whole thread, but I have a suggestion.</p>

<p>Given that your parents are paying full freight, and that one thing you want to do is study abroad – can you consider the possibility of graduating in 3 years and then spending a gap year traveling or studying abroad? Very often students end up paying a lot more via their home schools to get credit for a study abroad program, when the tuition for the actual program is actually far less. And money spent on traveling and accommodations can actually go a whole lot farther than money spent on tuition.</p>

<p>Also, when you go abroad for a semester or year during your junior year, it takes you away from your home campus – no matter how much you love that school, you are somewhere else for a year. So if you are planning a full academic year abroad – a 4-year graduation plan would still only provide 3 years at Bryn Mawr – and when you get back after the year abroad you may find that a lot has changed for you. </p>

<p>I think you should talk to your Dad about finances - seriously – and find out how much this is playing into his calculation. You may find that your options for a study abroad program are widened considerably if you don’t have to make the study fit within your home school’s requirements for awarding credit. </p>

<p>For example, my d’s college only allows study abroad at colleges where students have previously studied the language – so if your college has the same rule, you’d have to head off to Germany or Austria, or choose to study in an English-speaking country like the UK or Australia. Even if your college is more flexible, as a practical matter you wouldn’t be able to keep up with college-level academics without a good grounding in the language. </p>

<p>But you would like to learn more about Russian language and culture – and there are all sorts of study abroad programs go choose from for Russia, geared to various levels of language proficiency. So perhaps with a 3-year graduation option, you could then opt to sign up privately for a far less expensive program that would give you the language and cultural immersion you want – even though it wouldn’t earn you transferable college credit. But then you would gain proficiency in a third language – something that could be very valuable for employment or grad school later on. </p>

<p>I’d note that if you were a financial aid recipient, I might take a different view. I thought it was pretty cool that my d. could study abroad in college without paying extra – so it cost me the same to have her abroad as at home, and with the d’s need based grant, that meant that essentially the college was paying her airfare. </p>

<p>An alternative for you might be to take a year’s leave of absence from Bryn Mawr your junior year, and choose whatever study abroad program you want – again at far less than the cost of tuition – but I think that would be tougher financially on your parents simply because tuitions go up relentlessly year after year. Whatever your year #3 at Bryn Mawr will cost, it’s a virtual certainty that year #4 will cost more.</p>

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<p>It is an attractive idea to those of us paying for college that our students get out in 3 years. That is more than a 25% savings, and for families that don’t qualify for financial aid, or are gapped, it’s one of the few ways that some of these exorbitant costs can be kept down. Many kids are not so enthusiastic about the prospect. They want the full 4 years. </p>

<p>You can do a year abroad program after you graduate, often at a far lower cost. Most of these program are calibrated to the school’s tuition. There are programs that are a lot less expensive. Use some summers at local colleges to get your basic requirements, and it is indeed possible to graduate early.</p>

<p>In my case, I am lighting candles and praying that mine get out in 4 years.</p>

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<p>To cptofthehouse: While I understand a parent’s perspective on this - and, to be frank, the prospect of having $50,000 to go into grad school with is helpful - the three-year track isn’t something I want to do. I would much rather have my summers available to do internships, research, or even working to save up for grad school and post-grad programs rather than taking classes at CC. </p>

<p>This summer I am taking classes at Middlebury for German, but, as my mom explained, my dad’s opinion towards this was so that I could fulfill foreign language requirements and move on, whereas mine was to go into more advanced German next year. His opinion towards AP exams was to fulfill requirements in college and avoid the cost of the classes there, whereas mine was to show schools I could handle stronger material. In short, this is something I’ve realized he’s been thinking about having me do for years.</p>

<p>Thanks to everyone for all the study-abroad advice as well.</p>

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<p>Clockwork - Our two daughters each graduated from HS with 30-40 hours of university credits taken as joint enrollment students. They could have stayed in the state university system and graduated from college in under three years. We’re not wealthy, but their mother and I had no interest in seeing them cut their undergraduate experiences short. Grad school is where you develop expertise in a particular discipline but undergraduate life is where you grow into the kind of adult that you aspire to be.</p>

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<p>I do understand your perspective, Clock. I have the perspective of one who is paying the bills Maybe, you should shoulder that 4th year cost yourself. See how difficult it is to pay that $50K.</p>

<p>I am not pushing mine to get out in 3 years though current college kid and the one just graduated, could have easily done this. But we told them that we had monetary constraints, and that was one way they could go to a high cost college without merit money. Neither chose that option. One chose a state school and the other picked a college that gave merit money. The scholarship money he has gotten will add up to a full year’s cost, if we throw in the outside scholarship he received. </p>

<p>How can anyone expect parents to put out 50K+ without a blink of the eye? Of course he is going to be looking for someway to defray that cost, unless you are a Trump or Gates.</p>

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<p>I’m perfectly willing to take a job to help fit the bill for a fourth year if it comes down to it. In fact, I even took a job last fall to offer to help with tuition already - and was advised against keeping it by my folks who want me to “Devote all my time to studies and not worry about work AND school”. I couldn’t take a job this summer either because they said classes would be a better use of my time, that we didn’t need the money, and that I shouldn’t take a position from someone who does really need it. </p>

<p>My dad isn’t telling me that I have to graduate early due to financial reasons - his explanation is that he thinks it would look better to grad schools if I did. However, I suspect the reason is really because of money worries, and my mom has hinted that’s my dad’s main worries.</p>

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<p>Can you make $50K? That’s a lot to make. I think you can finish in 3 years easier than making that kind of money. If he really thinks it would look better to grad schools to finish in three years, there might be someone who knows about colleges, your counselor or a college professor that can set that straight for you by talking to him.</p>

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<p>The network of peer graduates from Bryn Mawr has lifelong monetary value; graduating a year soon deprives you of that bond. (It’s worth more than that but I’m trying to quantify it as $ so you can talk to your Dad.) When you need to make a work transfer, find a resource, travel…those are your people. Graduate school generally doesn’t generate that kind of lifelong allegience as undergrad.</p>

<p>New points to add, if they work for your Dad or in allegiance with your Mom:</p>

<p>You are also a person, not a machine. You might not feel ready to take on the rigors of graduate school at age X. Does anyone in your family not consider the emotional aspect as well as the intellectual/career dimensions of these timing decisions? That thinking might be too soft for your Dad, but it strikes me as something real.</p>

<p>You might consider raising the gender issue. When I was l9 my mom told me “go” (to Italy) because she said you’ll never be freer than at this moment in your life. If you go off to graduate school and fall in love, want to marry – you won’t likely be able to study overseas as readily. Sometimes Dads need to hear things as women view them.</p>

<p>Plus all the talking points expressed eloquently by others above, representing their experience in upper levels of academia…</p>