My son is going to be a second semester junior with a 3.6 or so GPA. He had been planning on doing a Chem BS but now is considering double majoring in chem BA and physics BA. It will be easy for him to finish the Chem BA + some but he will have the bare minimum for a physics BA.
He wants to do get the physics major because he thinks it will give him more possibilities for jobs (after college) and grad school (could go in physics or chem) and he’s not sure which discipline is the better fit (he’s always liked both but has only had a chance to take 1 physics class in college + Phys C).
On the other hand, he wonders if not having a chem BS would hurt him for grad school and if having a bare bones physics BA would be useful at all.
“he wonders if not having a chem BS would hurt him for grad school and if having a bare bones physics BA would be useful at all.”
This is an issue that he needs to take to the faculty members in the Chem and Physics departments. They know where their students have been admitted to grad school in recent years.
I agree, he should talk to the professors and see what the experience has been in terms of grad school admissions. If he wants to finish the BS in chemistry, perhaps he can pursue a minor in physics.
Unfortunately if he pursues the BS in chemistry he really doesn’t have room for anything else.
I’m worried that if he doesn’t try physics, he’ll regret it.
I am sure he could get into a good chemistry program with a BA ( since he’s taken a lot of intense courses and had research exp.)-- sure doing another couple of semesters of research would make him more impressive but my guess is that he’ll be fine. The question is what will the BA in physics get him other than a chance to determine if physics is right for him. If he decides he wants to pursue physics in grad school, I’m guessing he’d need some extra classes or experience.
Physics majors appear to have somewhat better bachelor’s level job prospects than chemistry majors, but the better jobs that they sometimes get tend to mostly be in non-physics areas like finance or computers (sometimes some types of engineering), as “smart people who can do math”.
Whether a BA in physics from the specific college includes course work sufficient for admission to PhD programs in physics depends on the college’s physics department. Of course, the college’s physics department also matters in terms of undergraduate research opportunities, since that (and faculty recommendations from that) are major factors in PhD program admissions. Typical preparation for physics PhD programs includes advanced course work in quantum mechanics, electromagnetism, mechanics, statistical and thermal physics, and lab course, as well as undergraduate research. Advanced math (e.g. real and complex analysis) is often taken.
The degree title BA versus BS is meaningless; what matters is the course and curricular content behind each degree program at the specific college (which you have not named).
There isn’t much of an overlap between the 2. It sounds like he has probably taken cal physics 1&2 (did he take both physics C exams or just 1 and complete the sequence at the university) and/or possibly modern or intermediate mechanics. Typically that means he would need which ever one he didn’t take, 2 semesters of electromagnetism, thermal, and 2 semesters of quantum, or 6 or 7 physics classes (depending on whether he completed 2or 3 semesters equivalent already.) And that does not include whatever other classes might not overlap, like math classes. Due to pre-reqs of course sequences, it sounds like he would need at least an extra yr to finish a physics major.
I am slightly confused about the thoughts toward grad school though. Perhaps my Ds is unusual in his approach. (Totally unsure about this part . Neither dh nor I have PhDs, so this is new territory for us. ) But, our sons’s thoughts are not really in terms of applying to grad school for “physics,” but instead narrowing down what field of physics he wants to pursue and who and where that field is being specialized in and who he would be working under. He is pursuing undergrad research, etc to help him clarify his long term goals.
Does your son have any idea what branch of physics appeals to him or why he thinks he wants to pursue physics? (As an aside, does your ds love math and does he have a strong math background? I don’t know much about a straight chem degree, but I wonder if math prereqs might also play a factor in courses. Math is a huge part of physics.)
Can he do both in the time remaining? If so, why not do it? If not, why worry about it?
When I was in school many moons ago, quite a few of my friends were Water and Soil majors (Mud). Most figured out that it only took and extra couple of classes to also get majors in Biology and Chemistry, so they took those too. Four majors, all in the same college so no problems with extra requirements like languages or arts (if those were required, they were already covered).
I wanted to add another thought about grad school. When our son was interviewing depts when deciding where to attend undergrad, one question he always asked was where the depts undergrads we’re going to grad school. One answer he was given has stuck with me. The dean described a strong student who doubled in math and physics, but had a 4.0 in his math courses while he had made a couple of Bs in his physics courses. The dean told us that the young man was not accepted into the physics grad program he wanted bc he was told that the committee was not convinced his heart was really in physics and not math.
Thinking about it from that perspective, I would encourage your son to talk to someone at the university who can really help him understand how decisions made now will impact grad school options.
I doubt that was purely a matter of his grades, though; it might have also come across in interviews and in his statement of purpose. A couple of Bs alone with strong grades in math classes won’t tank a strong science student in a quantitative field.
Exactly. So if your S is doing this for the better career prospects, you can tell him that the major doesn’t matter but the courses he takes do matter. Instead of double-majoring in physics, he can just make sure he takes some advanced math classes and perhaps learns a programming language. Hopefully he has done internships too, or is planning to get one this summer. It’s the skills that matter, not the major; a chemistry major who knows advanced math and how to program an app or maintain a database is more useful than a physics major who doesn’t know either of those things.
If the conundrum is because he can’t decide which one he might want to pursue for graduate school…two things. You don’t need an undergraduate degree to pursue a grad degree, usually; you just need the prerequisite coursework. If he doesn’t have time, he can minor in physics and will still probably have most of the required coursework. If he later decides that he has a burning passion to study physics on the graduate level, he can make up for the deficiencies - either by taking them as a non-degree student before admission, or by getting a conditional admit and taking them before he takes the MS or PhD level coursework once he’s in. In my opinion that’s better than delaying graduation simply to explore, or because of uncertainty.
But more importantly…it sounds like your son actually really likes chemistry. He doesn’t want to drop chem; he wants to add physics because of uncertainty - either about the job market, or because it’s the road not traveled and he’s curious if he would like it. But that’s true about anything. I’ve always loved history. I also wanted to be a meteorologist when I was a kid, and sometimes wonder what life would’ve been like had I pursued that instead of my eventual field. (Sure has better job prospects than my current field.) But at some point, one has to make a decision about which one they’re going to choose. Your son can still choose to try out physics, but with the knowledge that it will actually prolong his road if he decides to go with that (either because he’ll have to stay another year or because he’ll have to make up deficiencies post college). Or, if he is happy enough with chemistry, he can just to simply stay where he is.
Even if he chooses to just keep up with his chemistry BA and that’s it, that doesn’t mean he has to do it for the rest of his life.
" But at some point, one has to make a decision about which one they’re going to choose."-- yup! Just not sure when that point is."
In terms of going to grad school, he’s previously said that he wanted to work on renewable energy but NOT engineering; now he seems less sure. I definitely wouldn’t want him to get a PhD unless he specifically knew why he wanted it.
He likes what he knows of physics but he’s only taken physics C, and “modern physics.” His physics major would consist of these additional classes: Electricity and magnetism (2 semesters), Classical Mechanics, Advanced Math Class ( one or 2 more), Thermodynamics ( actually chemistry class). He’s already taken quantum mechanics (chemistry).
If he goes another semester, could he get financial aid? I know we need to ask.
Physics is not the major for someone who just wants to increase their employability. If that’s his concern then he should focus on getting an internship this summer not necessarily related to his major as experience is much more important.
If he has genuine interest in physics:
Some schools offer a physical chemistry concentration for chemistry majors. They’d take more advanced math courses, some QM (the physics version, not chemistry), and other advanced physics courses without having to complete another major. Even if this is not “officially” offered, he can make his own specialization. This could also lead towards physics grad school, especially if he goes into condensed matter or other related fields through undergraduate research. However, the concern wouldn’t be so much if he could get into grad school for physics but if he can handle it without taking the proper physics undergrad courses.
The barebones physics degree he would get would not prepare his for this and he’ll need to do significant self-study before he’s ready.
@nohablo Does your son go to a school with a small science program? It’s very strange for a chemistry major to take physics QM, as this requires real/complex analysis along with a strong background in EM. Typically they’ll have a “quantum chemistry” class for the chemistry majors, if anything. It’s also strange that the Thermal/Statistical Physics class is a chemistry class.
It’s not small and both the chem dept and physics dept offers a quantum class and thermodynamics class and I guest there is enough overlap that the physics dept doesn’t care which dept they’re taken in…
At least this is my understanding.
If both BS and BA programs are offered in the sciences, the BA programs are typically watered down versions. They will be short on labwork and the more rigorous courses. When I went to school, it was the Ed majors thinking about teaching secondary who were taking the BA coursework.
If the student wants to go on to grad school in the sciences, getting the BA could very definitely hurt him. First, he could be short on courses that his grad school requires for serious consideration. Secondly, the better programs just might not be interested in a student who did that.
In short, if he wants to go on in the sciences 2 BAs would be more of a hindrance than a single BS.
You might find some jobs that would be interested in the extra breadth, however more shallow, but most jobs will want to see the more rigorous work.