A day or two ago, I posted a video of a Florida State quarterback punching a woman in the face. I know that video
doesn’t fit a hazing thread but there are so many threads on rapes, frat problems, etc, I did not want to start a new thread.
So…why am I saying this… Another FSU football player hit a different woman in the face. sevmom is upset by UVA being singled oit. Maybe we should start a FSU thread. Nah…there are enough threads.
Harvest, Your quotes about tattling, etc. were not made by me. I have also never said that I did not find things like an “elephant walk” okay if these allegations are true. I would be upset if there were coercion in participating in something like that. The emails , questionnnaires you mention are stupid, sexist. I have not said otherwise. I am still waiting for the emails that threaten these guys in a way that it would be clear to them that they were in danger.
I’d be scared of these guys. Why do you suppose the coach said he couldn’t guarantee the safety of the one student if this was all clearly such a big joke with obviously no harm meant?
This thread has traction because some of us can’t quite believe how strongly others are defending the students who hazed this guy. I think it’s also significant that it did occur at UVa where the honor code is considered so important.
Nobody , including the school, defended this.They were all disciplined. Some people want them to be punished beyond what has already been meted out, particularly the parents of the plaintiff. And some here. The legal system is now going to be the one to sort this out further.
@sevmom if you look at my post #70 you will see exactly what the basis for the lawsuit is. Marcantonio supports those claims with specific actions of the defendants.
Part of those specifics is the threat of being sodomized by the *ildo if they did not finish the alcohol in the bathroom. The complaint also references that this same threat was also made in an email which I quoted upthread. But that is not the full extent of the support that the complaint cites for his fearing for his safety. It was also being blindfolded and interrogated about his sexual history, liquids being poured over his head during the questioning, trash cans being placed over their heads, the smashing of the bottle, the bathroom incident and on and on and on. It was the totality of the circumstances and the intoxication of the defendants that the complaint alleges made him believe he was not safe.
The complaint states that the coach confirmed to him that he could not guarantee his safety. That’s a very strong statement. I have no problem whatsoever with UVA suspending the 5 from the team for exposing incoming freshmen who have been on campus for a few days to this sort of abuse.
What I am trying to understand is what is it that you and @momofthreeboys disagree with – and yes you are correct they were her quotes but I got the impression you were agreeing with them. Correct me if I am wrong.
Thank you for clarifying that the quotes you cited were not mine. I agree that what was allegedly done was inappropriate and stupid. I have not said otherwise. The 5 defendants have been punished and disciplined by the school. Criminal charges were not brought. There is currently a civil case which the plaintiffs have a right to bring (and I have previously stated that ). There is more emphasis on hazing/bullying these days and I expect more of these types of lawsuits will be coming. There are law firms that specialize in this area of practice. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Disagree? disagree with what - not sure what you are asking? I thought this was a civil suit not a criminal suit in the federal courts because the prosecution declined to pursue in district court and I agree that there are very much hurdles to getting a judgement in this suit. I can’t agree or disagree on anything because 1) I haven’t read the entire complaint, 2) there’s been no response yet so nothing to compare what the complainant is saying to what the accused lawyers will say. I have impressions from the little I’ve read but they aren’t a fully formed position. I thought we were discussing the merits of this suit since UVa has already punished the kids and called the police who did their thing and I agree that some of the actions did violate UVa’s honor code as well as the team honor code. I think the heart of this is discussing whether it was a “good thing” for the complainant to do for his future well-being - I don’t agree with his lawyer that this is about “awareness” and “greater good”…that is one thing I disagree with and in my opinion this is more about retaliation and I’ve stated that particular position and we’ve speculated about Marcantonio and why he felt he had to do what he did. I think I’ve stated that I would have trouble supporting one of mine in the civil suit but if a parent of any of those kids, I would have supported them switching universities and getting on with their lives.
So perhaps you disagree me on that. The defendants have the possibility of losing and having to pay monetary compensation on top of the punishment that the college dealt and deal with this while trying to complete their college degrees just like the complainant will have to do if it isn’t dismissed but this isn’t a criminal trial.
There are other finer points where we might disagree but they have more to do with how we all interpret the actions - for example the goldfish and prune juice I don’t consider “extreme hazing” which are the words chosen by the OP for the title of this thread and I’m sure I could line up on each individual accusation and say whether I thought it was hazing or not hazing or extreme or not extreme none of it met the criminal test in Virginia hence my agreement that UVa did the right thing… but those are micro-discussions totally separate from this lawsuit.
I also disagree when people start lumping people together and posting that "all of XYZ is bad’ or "all of these people are bad’ and I’m pretty vocal about those kind of generalizations or that people that like chess are different and better than people who like to go out on green turf with helmets on their head and win games and one person can’t be geeky side and ahtletic simultaneously. And frankly all band kids aren’t bad 
either.
We all have agreed upthread that these are just allegations but we have discussing our various positions on the alleged behavior. You seem to believe, based upon some of your posts, that Marcantonio was the “misfit” and you asked at what point does he get to affect the desires of 20 other teammates. It seems to me you are characterizing Marcantonio as the one who did something wrong. Am I reading your posts incorrectly?
It’s just hard to discuss issues when one is not sure where other posters stand. My question really is what behaviors in my post #455 are acceptable in your view and should Marcantonio have lied to the coach when asked about the possible hazing? That is pivotal as that is what led to his having to leave the team.
No I am saying that Marcantonio was probably not strong enough to walk away from what was happening…that does not mean that what happened it was right and correct but it could also speak to his inability to let it go and move on with his life. I also said it is possible he would never “fit” with that group of kids…and as i said it happens every day in business, on college campuses, people just don’t ‘fit.’ He may not have fit in if he went along, he may not have fit if he walked away…he might just never have bonded with the team and it’s possible that the coach intuited that just from everyday interactions. It happens. I don’t fault him for answering in a way that he felt honest when asked directly, i respect his decision to do so.
The alcohol is/was illegal. The e-mails, goldfish, prune juice etc. were juvenile but should not cause extreme anguish in a well adjusted person in my opinion and if they chose to go along and again as Harvest said, perhaps it did cause extreme anguish for Marcantonio that required counseling, etc. we don’t know. I don’t know what I think about the elephant walk because I’m not a male and I really don’t know everything that happens in male locker rooms where guys are naked together all the time but I know men stand at urinals and whip it out seemly at random to pee so I don’t know how they feel but I know as I said “mine” said heck no he would have punched someone’s lights out before he’d participate in that activity. That is probably the activity I found most repugnant or degrading only because as a woman we seem to be more protective of our private parts in public and group settings as well as bathrooms and gang showers - there’s always a “stall” for those that are uncomfortable being naked in front of other people.
HarvestMoon,
It sounds like you are turning this thread into the trial of other posters who do not fall into lockstep with your opinion about the “acceptability” of a list of behaviors, when that information is irrelevant to whether this suit will succeed at trial.
For clarification, I don’t recall that the plaintiff claimed the first-year were ever unclothed. I recall only that they were asked to remove their ties. So the elephant-walk would have taken place with fully-clothed participants. Any touching would have been on the outside of clothing, I believe. Is that correct, HarvestMoon?
Anyone who “fit” with a group who could produce that email and attempt to force anyone to participate in that kind of “bonding” ritual would have to have something seriously wrong with them. I just don’t get why any parent could defend or justify this behavior. It just seems like you are saying “boys will be boys” without actually using those words.
I would hardly classify asking 2 posters to clarify their position as putting anyone on “trial.” It was a honest effort to focus the discussion on the issues that we do in fact disagree about. I agree with the above comment that there has been lot of dancing around with words that leave other posters unsure about what opinion is actually being advanced…
As to the merits of the case at trial, I have never predicted that outcome – I am not a litigator. What I have said is that the Marcantonio’s have sued 5 individuals that arguably have few assets. I am also presuming they have opened their checkbooks to do so as an attorney might not accept a case against such defendants on a contingency basis. Based on that, my opinion is that the actual result is less important to the Marcantonio’s than exposing what happened to their son and perhaps pointing a finger at the defendants. I think for them the win came when the press and the swimming community picked up on the filing of the lawsuit. Anything else is just “extra.” And I am sure with the caliber of the Boston attorney they retained, they have been well advised on the likelihood of the other swimmers not supporting their son’s view of things.
I don’t think this family’s actions are out of the ordinary – we just finished up our first round of college admissions and I know I would be pretty steamed if after all that effort one of my children had to transfer under these circumstances. I also think the father might have some idea of what goes above and beyond the norm when it comes to team initiations – he played college football himself – I think for University of Maine.
I don’t have the compliant with me over the week-end so am not certain whether there was any nudity. I do recall an allegation that one or more(?) of the defendants had their genitalia exposed and were “waving” it around as the “first years” did the elephant walk. It was alleged that Marcantonio saw this out of the corner of his blindfold.
Okay, but I don’t see a point in pursuing that either. Not everyone needs to have the same opinion on this incident, and if some people do think “boys will be boys,” then so what? Are you going to write some sort of condemnation of their opinion? Everyone is entitled to feel any way about this incident, and of course you are entitled to judge them for it, but why do you want to do that?
@Bay it is difficult to respond intelligently to another poster if one does is not clear on the opinion they are advancing. I am not “condemning” anyone just asking for clarification.
No one should be expected to have a clear opinion on what happened yet. Anyone who does, having read only a few snips of the complaint, is unfit to serve as a judge or juror on this case.
So? Who is going to sit on the jury or serve as a judge in this case? Which poster or posters?
I think it is unfair to everyone involved in this case, including the coach and UVA, to pass judgment in print on a public message board (where some posters have even typed the first and last names of the parties), where it will be preserved in posterity, before the facts are fully revealed and litigated. To me that is thoughtless and harmful to everyone involved.
Frankly I don’t believe boys and girls are wired “the same.” They may come out of the womb wired the same, who knows, but after that all bets are off. My kids’ babysitter and I used to have long discussions about this when I would pick the kids up. She would observe boys and girls at play all day long and had for decades…her whole life she was a babysitter and she was almost grandmother age when I delivered me first baby to her. She would talk about the things they would do for play together and how they would interact gender related so yeah…I do think there is some truth to gender identity whether it’s biological or sociological - if not why would some people end up conflicted about whether they were a boy or a girl? I don’t ever pretend to even understand how men think about certain things because my brain is wired to think about it as a woman…but having spent over 25 years living with only men I have only the insights I’ve gained about how i can communicate or how i understand what they do and why they do it in my family unit. Why would my boys whip it out and pee off the deck when we are in the “wilderness” …because they can.
But that does not excuse breaking the law or violating written codes. What people do outside the boundaries of law and written codes or ordinances gets to people’s ethics and morality and their ability to resist or accept group-think…and that will be all over the place with individuals having to make the decision and accept personal responsibility about accepting or rejecting association with those people or participating in those activities. “I didn’t really want to do this or that” isn’t an excuse that flies in my house anyway. Do I like to think that the boys in my life would have no trouble socking someone if they felt violated, probably not, I would prefer they avoid confrontation, but I can respect that they would protect themselves in that manner. and that they not instigate. I respect people that have a modicum of self-preservation and self-determination and don’t walk about feeling like oh poor me - a world victim looking for other people to blame - I don’t like it in work situations,
Then why do you participate in these threads?