I participate in them because they are fascinating and interesting to me. I have never used anyone’s name in my postings. I have attempted to convey my thoughts from as neutral a standpoint as I can, but in some cases I feel I have had to counterbalance the tremendous one-sided condemnations of these young men, by pointing out the possible weaknesses in the case and the potential arguments that may come from the other side, and the possibility that all the facts in the complaint may not actually be true.
Agree, it is fascinating and interesting to see how people view things that are not distinctly black or white and how sometimes my thinking can evolve based on “listening” to what other people say…it’s also how I prefer to work - I like working in diverse teams with people that have strong opinions over workgroups with a bunch of people that agree with each other or worse yet have no opinions whatsoever.
Bay, I like the legal discussion including your participation. You are not neutral. I find some of your speculations offensive and without any basis of fact.
I don’t see any names thrown around in the posts. In the links, yes there are names.
And, most of us are addressing what happened and what we think of the accusations. We aren’t pretending to be actual judges and juries.
I asked my daughter who is a current athlete about this last night and her response was “Swimmer are weirdos. They are with each other all the time. Naked.”
That’s not true. Haven’t read all of this thread so don’t know if it is or is not here, but it sure isn’t true in other threads, at least in reference to mentioning other poster’s names…
It would help if people would read the thread before posting with irrelevant and inaccurate comments.
It would help if people would give clear, straight answers when posters continue to ask them to rather than playing whack-a-mole.
You have to have a thick skin to participate in these discussions. None of my comments were directed at you, so I’m not sure how you were offended. But if you were, it was not my intent to offend you.
@Bay I agree that some of your speculation about the specifics of the hazing have been unusual/offensive. If a person in a position of power tells someone to grab someone’s junk, I don’t think nit picking about hand positions, amount of clothing, etc is really relevant. To me, nit picking in this way is just a way to deflect attention from the real issue, the bullying and abuse.
There was no one in a position of power who told those kids to do what they did…it’s a pretty repugnant in terms of a bonding exercise, but make no mistake there was no one in a position of power there that night I’d stake my life on that.
Would you say coercion was used? Do you think the older ones were acting in a way that would intimidate the new students? I do. That is an abuse of power whether it is perceived power or actual power. No need to stake ones life in this discussion!
@bay, thanks. I wasn’t personally offended. In my opinion, some of your speculations were offensive as deega123
states. Plus…you don’t like some of the speculation about the 5 guys. I may be drawing a different line here but at least we do have information about a suspension, what a couple of parents initially said, what a prosecuter said (there was no exoneration), etc.
The following is also my opinion…
Speculation such as maybe the accuser was a perpetrator crosses a line for me. There is no evidence of this whatsoever.
I think you said you are not native born. You sound very appreciative for the opportunites this country has given you and you have a lot of repsect for the constitution. I have some understanding. My dad is not native born either.
When we trash the accuser, when we demonize the accuser, we are affecting the right of sombody to fight back legally. That is a pretty important right.
I like your post #480.
There is an inherent power imbalance between older guys and new recruits.
Yes, especially when the coach says he cannot protect the new recruits from being harmed by the older guys who are harassing, threatening, and intimidating them.
They broke the honor code, they got punished. i think that says it all. This isn’t presumably about a guy whose mother wipes his nose and a bunch of playground bullies attacking him, they are all including Marcantonio, national level swimmers who have been weight lifting, training, competing and all kinds of things to build mental and physical strength since they were very young. His own lawyer claims he would like to reach the Olympics. So no i don’t see this as some sort of extreme power thing. i think it was a bunch of guys saying let’s see how tough you really are. He had two choices stay or say F you and walk away. Some of those very same freshmen are competing with those very same upper classmen for their position on the team team and in relays. Marcantonio will most likely be swimming in the same pool against those guys in the coming year or two. And for the umteenth time i’ll reiterate…They did things they shouldn’t have done and they got punished rightfully so and that story has been written.
But again this isn’t about those guys getting punished by the school. This is about Marcantonio suing for punitive damages with a claim that he was forced to leave the team and suffered mental anguish.
No, the coach said he could not protect Marcantonio. But that, too, is a claim right now - it may or may not be taken out of context. I believe the coach probably said something to that effect and more. It’s speculation but I’m guessing the coach did not think he should “need” to “protect” a national swimmer with Olympic dreams from his team mates and hoped that they would work out their differences. A pipedream perhaps, but we’re all speculating about everything.
No, they did not get punished at all for breaking the honor code. As far as I know, they weren’t even brought before the honor committee. Again, some people keep bending the truth in their defense.
What are you talking about and who is bending the truth? The media? What did they get suspended for if not violations of the athletic and honor codes? What do you know that the school would not release? it’s also reported and confirmed by the police that UVa reported this to the police. This is what was reported regarding the suspensions and the link. UVa would not comment but I can’t imagine with the timing what else they would have been suspended for other than what transpired that we are now on almost 500 posts…and I feel like we’re starting all over again 
http://swimswam.com/5-virginia-swimmers-suspended-fall-2014-semester/
Hmmm… Multiple sources…hazing incident…hmmm
mathyone, to be fair on the honor code business - I’m not sure if they were technically brought up on that or not, but they were already disciplined with pretty serious consequences by the athletic department and the school in general . No one is obligated to bring honors charges and the sanction is extreme - expulsion( although I believe that may be being revised) so many people are reluctant to bring charges. Only about 40 charges are brought a year , within about a 14,000 undergrad population, plus grad students. My guess would be the athletic department felt that a semester suspension ( and 4 of the 5 were in their last year of school) was already pretty significant punishment. Continuing to focus on the honor code stuff really is a distraction. The school disciplined the players and forwarded things to the police. Every school has their own way of dealing with discipline issues of their students. I really don’t focus on how other schools deal with discipline issues that my kids are not current or former students of. I assume most schools are dealing with things in good faith.
@momofthreeboys, I was responding to your post directly above mine in which you stated “They broke the honor code, they got punished. i think that says it all.” No, they were not punished for breaking the honor code. A single semester suspension from sports is not a punishment for breaking the honor code. Expulsion or retraction of a diploma is the punishment for breaking the honor code. Your statement was bending the truth. I am actually not focusing on the honor code. I am focusing on the defense of the students who hazed and the blaming of the victim by some parents posting on this thread, to the point of bending the truth as you did in your post #494. I find this position astonishing.