@bay, I just told you I liked one of your posts. Post 480. And I don’t necessarily agree with everything in that post.
I am not arguing with you on the legal issues. The plaintiff may lose. You may be right.
The feeling is mutual, but it is not your fault. I tend to look at lawsuits through the lens of a lawyer, and not a layperson spectator. What the law says is what matters from my perspective, not whether something is repulsive or morally wrong or dishonorable or shows lack of character. Those conclusions are irrelevant to me, because they will not determine the outcome of a case. I won’t deny anyone’s feelings in that regard, I just don’t find them relevant to our discussion about this civil lawsuit.
@Bay you may look at it that way but how productive is that on a thread when the vast majority of posters are not lawyers? I am a lawyer but really can’t add much about what might happen at trial because I am not a litigator and do not have experience with cases dealing with these sorts of claims. If you have such experience then you would be in a very good position to guide this discussion with regard to what you see happening at trial. But with all due respect I do not see your comments to be all that much different than the rest of ours - basically how acceptable or unacceptable this behavior would be.
My approach to any of these threads is to treat the cases as hypotheticals - basically what do I think if what alleged is true. Certainly all the posters on this thread are intelligent enough to discern that there are 2 sides to any claim against another individual. But none of us will ever have access to the compete defense unless we are present at the trial to hear testimony or if the press reports on the testimony in cases that might be of public interest. None of us will ever read all the pleadings or depositions in this case – it would be a full time job.
So we do the best we can and discuss the allegations as made by the plaintiff. That does not mean any of us are saying all the defendants are automatically guilty as charged. In this case we had some emails which are there in black and white. Some of us had a big problem with those emails and expressed ourselves accordingly.
Yes, the emails are disgusting ,lame, juvenile and sexist. You have said you were somehow able to get a copy of the entire complaint. Do you have a link? You quoted a couple of the emails (the Mr. Mean stuff) and there was some suggestion that the recruits thought the initial emails were a “joke”. (although not sure if the plaintiff took it that way). You have said other "abusive " emails were sent out (about the scavenger hunt) and an email to the plaintiff threatening him if he said anything about an eye injury to a recruit). Do you have the exact quotes on those emails? You are a lawyer. What would the police usually do with a specific, credible threat?
Thanks for the link, dstark. I was aware of all that in terms of the hazing. I should have made it clear- a lot of focus here has been on the emails- I am really asking if a separate issue/ investigation could have been made in terms of any credible threat. Perhaps not but I am just curious about that.
@sevmom I have a paper copy of the complaint and do not have it with me at home over the week-end. I believe the only other email where the text was quoted in the complaint was the one regarding the overnight at the amphitheater where the 'first years" had to save seats for the upperclassmen. The women’s team participated in the “saving seats” evening and it was just another abusive, insulting email to the male “first years” with references about what they might do with members of the women’s team. The closing was simply *UCK YOU.
If my memory serves me correctly there were other emails referenced in the complaint but not quoted. It was alleged in those emails (I think) that he was threatened and told to lie if asked about how the eye injury occurred to the other “first year.” I definitely got the impression from the complaint that the upperclassmen were very concerned about the coach finding out about the evening at the swim house. So perhaps there had been issues in previous years.
Thanks. I have zero experience with swimming but it seems like it may be one of the few sports where the males and females at the collegiate level may be spending a lot of time together (or at least that seems to be the case at UVa). Just in looking at the UVa Facebook swimming pages, the males and females are photographed together. Looking at some of the Facebook pages of some of the swimmers , they all seem to be friends and some pictures show them hanging out together. And, yes, I am admitting I have looked at some of their pages ! It is a curious situation because the other recruits seem to be friends with these defendants. For all I know, the female swimmers do crazy stuff like rank all the new guys. There is more crazy stuff that goes on , I think , than we realize. I do think that the plaintiff was exposed to inappropriate things and hazing, even if it did not fit the legal definition that could be prosecuted. I hope he has a successful career at Northwestern.
What if the female swimmers do rank all the new guys? That seems pretty benign to me. What does that have to do with the allegations made against the 5 defendants?
I have no idea if they do that or not. They could be doing even stranger things or nothing at all. My point is that we don’t know what our kids, or anyone else’s kids (male or female) are doing 24/7. Unless we are trailing them ourselves 24/7 . The 5 defendants will have to deal with this in the legal system now so they will be answering to these allegations.
Ok - I agree that we don’t know what our kids or anyone else’s kids are doing 24/7. Just not sure what your point is. -
Okay, my other indirect point might be that most people are not perfect. You have made it clear you have very high expectations of yourself and rules of behavior (correct me if I’m wrong-I don’t feel like slogging through past posts). These defendants are clearly not perfect, that’s for sure. That will all come out if it gets to trial. I would imagine that if there is anything at all that is good about them, that will come out as well.
Would agree about people not being perfect. Yes, I have high expectations for myself and how I present myself. I don’t think I am alone there - would assume you do as well. Again, not sure what your point is. This is getting tedious.
If it is getting tedious to you, why do you keep asking me what my point is? Maybe there is no point and we can leave it at that. 
It certainly is tedious if the only allowable discussion on this thread is a poll about whether people agree or disagree that enumerated behaviors are “acceptable” or not. It is hard to see any value in that. With all due respect, of course.
You are free to take the discussion in any direction you so choose. My questions to other posters were simply for clarification on their positions. I certainly have been very forthcoming in answering questions posed to me and think I have articulated well what my thoughts are on the allegations.
No one is regulating what direction the discussion takes so please feel free to direct it any way you please. I will still contribute.
Gee thanks. Your last post about me indicated that you were turning the thread into an evaluation of who added value or was effective at guiding the discussion. I would never have thought about doing that to you.
Really sorry you took my last post that way as that was not my intention.
Are we not talking about the UVA hazing any more?
@sevmom, “For all I know, the female swimmers do crazy stuff like rank all the new guys.” I’m not sure how this would be relevant to the hazing discussion. Are you suggesting that the possibility that female swimmers gossip about the new guys–and perhaps rank how “hot” they are (I assume that is what you meant by “rank”)–is in any way comparable to the activities of the male defendants? Sorry, but the hazing activities are not just the male version of female “crazy stuff” gossip. Is this yet another iteration of “boys will be boys” only now it’s “boys will be boys just like girls will be girls”?