<p>collegehelp,
Interesting numbers. Would you please provide the link?</p>
<p>Honestly, why does it matter to the average student what the grad numbers for athletes are? It has nothing to do with the education that a non-(scholarship/big sport) athlete will recieve.</p>
<p>I do understand that some students may not want to go to a big sports school, but that doesn't make them bad, it's just a preference. Kind of like rural/urban settings.</p>
<p>The thing with those numbers is that for example in certain colleges like Due, they have more people than the average college that go play professional basketball. So maybe 2 people will leave Duke Freshman year then 1 Sophomore year then like 5 after Junior year and that leaves like 8 of the original 16 players which shows their 50% graduation rate. You should never bring up graduation rates for Baseball, Football, or Basketball, because there are (although they are very few) that go to the NBA draft or go to Europe, or NBDL, or somewhere else.</p>
<p>Well, Stanford's bb players had 100% graduation rate before. But with only 12 players or so on the team, anything that changes is gonna have wild swing in the graduation rate--hence the 69%.</p>
<p>But anyway, I don't get why it matters ON THIS THREAD. We are talking about excitment and fun associated with athletics here, not the moral issue associated with admission of student-athletes. That should be in another thread. It's like comparing GPA and the sore loser goes, "but I am better looking than you!".</p>
<p>Also the sports grad rates get dinged for transfers out who may graduate elsewhere. Many leave due to lack of PT or other conflicts. Not academics.</p>
<p>For the reasons cited above the graduation rates, especially for men's bb, are meaningless. The real question is how many were in good academic standing when they left.</p>
<p>the football graduation rates are a little better at some schools but still lower than the overall rates. </p>
<p>Stanford 91%
Northwestern 79%
Duke 86%
Vanderbilt 86%
Notre Dame 84%
USC 52%</p>
<p>Michigan 63%
Wisconsin 51%
UCLA 53%
penn State 76%
Texas 29%
Illinois 53%
UVA 60%
Boston College 91%
Georgetown 97% </p>
<p>The graduation rates for athletes might be inflated because athletes who are marginal scholars might be steered into easy majors. I am skeptical about the higher graduation rates for the footballers. But, maybe the helmets really do work.</p>
<p>Collegehelp:</p>
<p>You consistently seem to be ignoring the methodology used for determining graduation rates. BB players leave sometimes within one year to turn pro. Many, but not all, football players stay four years. These impacts on the graduation rate. And hey, one person's easy major is another person's interesting, fascinating, what I want to do with my life major.</p>
<p>The real test is whether they were in good standing when they left.</p>
<p>tsdad-
I don't buy your argument. According to federal regulations, if a student leaves your college, they are a drop-out whether in good academic standing or not. The graduation rate for non-athletes does not take gpa into account. There is nothing comparable for non-athletes so how do you know if the athlete drop-out rate is good or bad if you take gpa into account. Besides, I don't think many athletes drop-out to go pro.</p>
<p>I think the general implication of the stats cited earlier is that students getting athletic aid are not very good students. It exposes the ugly underbelly of big-time Div I sports.</p>
<p>When you only have 20 in a class having 2 leave early to go pro means 10% off the top. As to transfers,, I doubt many people are aware that transfers are treated as dropouts for sports stats. It skews the number as few people are comparing the sports rate to the school rate--they are comparing it to 100%, period. UW loses a few people per football class in good standing who transfer to another school due to lack of PT. One became the All Ivy QB of Yale. Others go to Western Illinois.</p>
<p>barrons-
The grad rates on the NCAA site (see earlier link post #107) indicate how many students are behind each grad percent. They are coded a-e where a is 1-5 and e is greater than 20. For example, Wisconsin basketball had 6-10 on athletic "scholarship" and football had over 20. </p>
<p>I am using 4-year average graduation rates, not single-year, so I think the rates are pretty stable.</p>
<p>tsdad-
The NCAA site lists a (bogus) grad rate that takes transfers and academic standing into account (I think...better double-check me on this). They call it the Graduation Success Rate (GSR). It is a sham, but it is there for you to look at. Some of the GSRs are not very good either, although not as bad as the official federal rate that is dictated by law.</p>
<p>"I do understand that some students may not want to go to a big sports school, but that doesn't make them bad, it's just a preference. Kind of like rural/urban settings. "</p>
<p>Yes, and some prefer virtually no sports.</p>
<p>Ironically, a friend of my daughter's wouldn't apply to my alma mater in part because she felt the student body there would be too sports-oriented for her tastes. After all they play D1 sports, and seem enthused about some of them such as hockey. Ditto a school like Williams, where something like 40% of the student body plays varsity sports. She doesn't like sports herself and, over the years, she has not preferred the company of the people she knew who were into sports, and vica versa. So she decided she'd rather not be around such types if she could avoid them, to the exent reasonable. So for her the presence of sports was deemed to be a big negative, due to the types of people she feels they attract that she would have to filter out.</p>
<p>Her reasoning, not mine. But there are people like that, too, evidently. For them the athletics aspect is a complete turnoff.</p>
<p>Different strokes.</p>
<p>OoHHHHHHHHH--"dictated by law".. Scary Boo </p>
<p>Since when are the Feds all that smart?</p>
<p>I did some digging around on the website for the NCAA and found some very interesting data for the student-athletes at the schools on The Honor Roll, ie, those colleges that have the best combinations of outstanding academics and athletic achievement. </p>
<p>In trying to make a judgment about the success of the Graduation Rate of a school’s athletic program and not be affected by the transfer issue, a good proxy might be the graduation rate of those student-athletes who exhausted their eligibility, ie, those students who spent at least four years at the college. The NCAA measures this and provides the graduation rates for those student-athletes measured over a 10-year period from 1990-99. Here were the numbers for The Honor Roll:</p>
<p>574 athletes, 97% Graduation Rate at Stanford
589 athletes, 98% Graduation Rate at Duke
532 athletes, 100% Graduation Rate at Northwestern
417 athletes, 98% Graduation Rate at Vanderbilt
627 athletes, 99% Graduation Rate at Notre Dame</p>
<p>403 athletes, 83% Graduation Rate at UC Berkeley
537 athletes, 93% Graduation Rate at U Michigan
538 athletes, 94% Graduation Rate at U Virginia
457 athletes, 86% Graduation Rate at UCLA
334 athletes, 84% Graduation Rate at USC
458 athletes, 91% Graduation Rate at Wake Forest</p>
<p>I looked for the numbers for the Ivies, but they were not available. I very much doubt that their numbers were any better than those of the first five privates. It would be interesting to compare them if anyone has the data. </p>
<p>I think those who are disparaging these non-Ivy schools should reconsider their position (and an apology would be nice). It appears like you can’t permit any school outside of the Ivy League to be considered better in any way than the Ivies. Well, the facts are that these schools are the premier schools for the combination of academic and athletic achievement and they graduate their students at an impressive rate. </p>
<p>If you don’t like sports or it’s not important to you, then fine. Move on. But give these schools some credit. They should be admired as exemplars of how a school and its student-athletes can achieve great success in the classroom, on the playing field, and on Graduation Day.</p>
<p>
[quote]
a good proxy might be the graduation rate of those student-athletes who exhausted their eligibility, ie, those students who spent at least four years at the college
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i don't see the point of this measurement. if you are basing your figures off of the population of students that have spent a full four years at the school, what are you measuring exactly?</p>
<p>you've already cut out the drop-outs, transfers, etc... that's akin to the Mayor of a fictitious city measuring its current crime rate but only measuring it based off of a select group of people: those who have never had a previous criminal record, are high income earners and have all had a higher education. i.e. if it ISN'T 0% (or in the NCAAs case, 100%), you should be left scratching your head...</p>
<p>its just another "Jedi Mind Trick" from the NCAA to try and paint their programs in the highest possible light.</p>
<p>Prestige,
I was trying to make allowances for athletic transfers as so often their moves out of a school relate not to the school or their academic standing, but rather their athletic experience. Frankly, I think that this is all a waste of time as these schools all do a pretty darn good job with all of their students, including athletes. You and others had previously characterized them in unflattering terms and so all of this was a response and was (IMO) a pretty unproductive detour. </p>
<p>I think that a lot of the criticisms that you and others raise of the NCAA and student-athletes are on the mark and there are definitely problems out there. But I think you're pointing at the wrong schools. These places do it right and care far more about their academic reputations than a few basketball or football games.</p>
<p>monydad,
Re the “sports not preferred” student you referred to in #114, I think she is painting with a pretty broad brush and stereotyping an entire class of students without knowing a single one of them. However, if she does not want to go to a college that has an active sports scene, then fine and good luck to her. </p>
<p>Unlike your friend’s daughter, you must realize that there are hundreds of thousands of current high schoolers who would enjoy that special combination of great academics and great athletics. As others have mentioned, the athletic success of a school can be an energizing part of a college search as people like being around winners. For others (like me), it’s about the scene and the atmosphere and the social aspect and how this contributes to the buzz and the vibrancy of a college campus and adds to an undergraduate experience. As documented and commented on previously, it really is a very different scene than the Ivies. </p>
<p>For those students who are looking for the combination of a top academic college and also one that gives you both athletic excellence and a fun scene surrounding the athletic events, then these are best options:</p>
<p>Stanford (#4 USNWR and #1 Directors Cup)
Duke (#8 USNWR and #11 Directors Cup)
Northwestern (#14 USNWR and #30 Directors Cup)
Vanderbilt (#18 USNWR and #33 Directors Cup)
Notre Dame (#20 USNWR and #22 Directors Cup)
UC Berkeley (#21 USNWR and #9 Directors Cup)
U Michigan (#24 USNWR and #4 Directors Cup)
U Virginia (#24 USNWR and #13 Directors Cup)
UCLA (#26 USNWR and #2 Directors Cup)
USC (#27 USNWR and #5 Directors Cup)
U North Carolina (#27 USNWR and #3 Directors Cup)
Wake Forest (#30 USNWR and #23 Directors Cup)
U Wisconsin (#34 USNWR and #16 Directors Cup)
Georgia Tech (#38 USNWR and #46 Directors Cup)
U Washington (#42 USNWR and #29 Directors Cup)
U Florida (#47 USNWR and #6 Directors Cup)
U Texas (#47 USNWR and #8 Directors Cup)</p>
<p>Yo people, having gone to the big state school (Wisco) and having seen some amazing sports (rose bowl this year, mark my words), I can say it was certainly a factor that I should have put more weight on when deciding between some smaller LACs and Madison. My UGPA and LSAT will determine where I go to law school. Madison or Amherst, that LSAT is going to really be the end all of me. But some of the experiences I've had with school spirit will stay with me for a lifetime. I know this is going to be hard for many of the parents who post on this website, but it's true.</p>
<p>"November 24th BU v Cornell @ Madison Square Garden. It's on."</p>
<p>Thanks for the heads up, but it's 3 months too late, it seems.</p>
<p>Madison Square Garden is completely sold out for this game, except for the very top rows behind the goals. Scalped tockets are going for $150- $200.</p>
<p>Quite amazing since the interest level is allegedly so meager. I guess hawkette would suggest that all tickets were gobbled up by BU alums.</p>