Fact Checking: Vanderbilt's Amazing Alumni Accomplishments

Colleges and Universities A-Z Vanderbilt University
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@Otemachi, wrote several pages ago:

“To drastically improve its ranking Vanderbilt really needs to improve its endowment, I think, for its lowest among the four schools. After its split from the medical center, the school’s endowment is now only 3.8B.”

This is a good thread exploring multiple issues very astutely. When it comes to the size of the endowment, one has to ask: “how is that endowment going to benefit me personally.” How has a school been spending its money? At Vandy I see money being spent on things that really benefit the quality of life of students.

First and foremost, Vandy is spending on undergraduate scholarships and FA. The offer my kid received was 10x greater at Vandy than at UChicago (which has an 8 billion dollar endowment by the way); and the Ivy and LACs did not offer anything by way of merit scholarships. What good are the endowments at these other schools, if they are not going to give my high stat kid a merit scholarship and I will have to be full pay?

Second, Vandy spends on quality dorms for freshman (Ingram Commons) and quality upperclassman dormitories (some other schools like UChicago don’t supply sufficient upperclassman dormitories and the vast majority of students move off campus). My kid may not want to stay on campus for all 4 years, but I am thankful for having that opportunity with quality housing.

Third, Vandy spends on quality food. Hands down, the tastiest, most readily available (many locations) and healthiest food we sampled at any school. Lifelong habits are being formed in college and good, healthy dining should be one of them.

Fourth, Vandy’s arboretum endowment is so flush with cash (and restricted to beautifying the campus) that they are probably the only school in the country currently turning interior campus parking and roads into green space despite already having an amazingly green and beautiful campus.

Also, I look at the numbers and quality of the faculty in my kid’s areas of interest, and I am impressed.

In summary, endowment size is a very loose way to compare institutions made more relevant because of ranking systems like USNWR. Some people fret over it on other threads, viewing endowment size as absolutely crucial. I believe that Vandy is spending its money on making the undergraduate experience excellent and that makes it an excellent choice. These are probably some the same reasons that the Princeton Review lists Vandy as #1 or #2 (past two years) in “happiest students.” “Anchor Down” for these reasons and there will be many more “amazing alumni achievements” in the future.

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@Otemachi : I think NU is generally better and more established (looks more like higher ranked peers in the sense I explained to you) than this tier of schools at the undergraduate level. Also, again those are two units you mention. NU does really well with other units and most of all, for the sake of various global rankings has substantially better research infrastructure overall which means it has more impact through its graduate school and maybe even professional schools. It is often much more about impact than faring worse in a couple of individual rankings. NU is kind of up there in those respects and yes, Duke likely considers VU peer perhaps due to application overlap and maybe some other similar features but I know when designating a peer, they look at stuff like that. Regardless, they are more so an admissions peer than much else. They both do very well with certain rankings but Duke has an obvious edge over most schools except that tier you mention overall…much of who are getting an “Ivy bump” for yield. I think most would regard Duke and Penn as similar at the UG level, but gee I wonder why Duke has lower yield. Often you, even on these boards, find this Ivy pedestal attitude in addition to heavy regionalism. But in terms of metrics that measure output and impact, no doubt Duke has risen to be a true beast. I find that UG prestige, ranking and yield can be manipulated irrespective of the quality of the programs offered and even the strength of the outputs.

@Sam-I-Am : As nice as those things are, many “new” Ivies do stuff like that (also many have just as many trees if not more. An arboretum is designated because of diversity and lesser so tree canopy or square footage). The other schools have traditionally spent more on their academic and research infrastructure and have relatively recently pivoted to quality of life pandering (notice how irrespective of this, very top students still want to go). This has really paid off in the long run and most tippy (or near top 10) offer very strong financial aid pages as well. I think all the quality of life pandering has served as a distraction of many new Ivies. Just keep the students less stressed and happier than the students at other institutions, and they will keep quiet and overlook any weaknesses if severe. It takes more than nice food, a nice campus, and comfort to increase the quality, output, and impact of undergraduate programs. I always discuss the plethora of options that many very top ranked schools have to truly challenge and activate their student bodies as soon as they hit campus. This may indeed result in more “stress” and less “happiness” but it has definitely worked and still attracts the most ambitious students. It is not all about getting just the high scoring students which most of those schools have plenty of without having to directly invest in pulling them. They let their names and academic programs pretty much do the talking. That is what schools who truly want to move up and gain more respect outside of USNWR ranking should think about investing in. It isn’t easy, but they must move on from quality of life pandering (which works to some extent) and get a bit more serious about investing more of that money to ensure the students get a better education. And again, I am not singling out VU, many/most newer elites do this and it appears that it sometimes attracts the wrong type of student for the wrong reasons (you basically get elite highered institutions doing everything other than what they are supposed to be doing or producing and then a content student body that sits by idly allowing them to get away with it).

Also, being impressed by the faculty in your child’s area of interest is such a low bar for appreciation of any school in the top 20. What about their teaching, pedagogical tendencies and culture, etc. Variances in this seem to distinguish very solid elite schools from unbeatable ones.

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@Otemachi : I know you are way younger than me(Okay not really lol), but 14 years (a little over half my age) really isn’t a long time when you think about it.

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Concerning prior posts:

  1. Yes VU needs to increase its endowment to play with the top tier. In general USNWR values wealth and reputation. Most of which came 200 years ago. While VU is “poor” relative to other top 20’s they are overachievers relative to some of the rich schools that like to hold on to their $$$.
  2. Yield is easy to manipulate and an overrated metric. Just accept more for ED, offer merit money, and accept more from students showing interest. A more valuable metric is increasing the number of students applying ED. This shows a school is the first choice for more students. VU ED applications are increasing.
  3. Peer universities can be debated by parents, and ranking methods. VU has the most application overlap with Duke and Harvard. So high school students are grouping these 3 schools together. Make whatever you will with that data.
  4. The increasing test scores at VU indicate more elite high school grads are electing to enroll at VU. These students have LOTS of choices. In the past they elected to go elsewhere. Today they want to go to VU.
  5. Merit aid helps. How many 5 star football players attend a university that did not off them a scholarship?
  6. While standardized tests have flaws they are here to stay until someone comes up with a better way to evaluate students from different high schools when there are more qualified applicants than open seats for freshman.
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Sam-I-Am, The Princeton Review looks at 300,000+ surveys from current students and report what “the students say”. The students say… VU consistently ranks at the top in students happiness, quality of life, and this year they ranked Nashville as the best city to live in. This message from current students resonates loud and clear with millennial students and parents.

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@bud123 : I believe it is Yale not Harvard or at least Yale is who matters because There are actually some cross-admits between the two (though Yale wins a majority of them). Harvard is a useless place to cite that a school shares applicants with because most cross-admits are not yielding and there are likely few cross-admits to begin with.

Also, I do not trust what students say. I find VU students and several others, relatively uncritical about a school. VU students in another survey suggested that they worked as hard academically as JHU and MIT students and H students said they were in the middle of the pack. Some campuses have cultures where they are much more critical and demanding about what they are getting. Those surveys could be reflecting that a bunch of students who matriculate at a school are primarily demanding high quality of life (WUSTL and VU both have this and extremely wealthy students outside of the Ivy Plus so I am really not surprised). If anything, this should be slightly concerning. They need to do more than that to continue to rise and stay on top and again, yes that may result in the schools becoming more stressful overall.

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@bud123 : Like I am pretty sure tons of other non-Ivy Plus schools has lots of overlap with Duke and VU, and certain Ivies, but I would not say that it is because students regard Emory as the same caliber as a Duke or whatever Ivy (hell even some of those applying to a “lower Ivy” clearly know the differences), usually Penn and places like that. I don’t really care what other “associations” they make between these (I will let you set this low bar for YOUR school. If that low expectation satisfies you, run with it).

I care whether or not the school is ACTUALLY the same caliber and will not delude myself to think otherwise. Looking at the curriculum offered and the outputs offered, I am sorry, but as much as I love my alma mater, it currently goes between 15 and 25 somewhere. I refuse to pretend. Even if it were to do like VU and reconfigure admissions, I would still say this unless I saw other evidence that more than just quality of life dorms, and non-academic facilities are improving. Nice try though. I really doubt those students are that naive (though let us not get it twisted, many of use applying straight out of HS were in some senses). They have a dream like most do and then they know of other good schools that they can go to if that goal doesn’t work out. Also common sense should tell you that Harvard is really not like the other two in terms of institutional culture or caliber. Even Duke to some extent. I have seen some Hustler articles in the (not too recent though but between 2010-2013 during the rise of the stats at VU so it was an interesting perspective)) past trashing Duke and mentioning how they do not want VU to become “too” intellectual or stressful like Duke. While Duke has certainly become “more” that way, the fact that an outsider at another school deems them as too much of that all I can say is wow! And then can you imagine Harvard. I have seen students on this very board at this school trash it because of its “horrible campus life”. Either they are bitter or realize they do not have the values of that type of school. But seriously you are glad that your school is associated with a place that many students apply for “kicks”. The serious applicants to H are not stupid, trust me. And beyond being to elite schools in the top 20 or so and brick campuses, there are not many associations. Don’t kid yourself. The reason why they may be so much overlap is because super high scoring students assume they will get into H or Duke for that matter. Wanna bet WUSTL maybe sees some similar patterns. H is the prestige whore goal of many students applying to top 20s, Duke makes sense as a top 10 goal for those who decide they want the “vibe” VU has but maybe more prestige, but then the question is what other schools does VU have overlap with.

VU students in another survey suggested that they worked as hard academically as JHU and MIT students and H students said they were in the middle of the pack (do I need to start posting course materials because I will…from not only STEM but other disciplines). Some campuses have cultures where they are much more critical and demanding about what they are getting and this culture is going to ding rankings in certain areas. Those surveys could be reflecting that a bunch of students who matriculate at a school are primarily demanding high quality of life (WUSTL and VU both have this and extremely wealthy students outside of the Ivy Plus so I am really not surprised) and get it. If anything, this should be slightly concerning. They need to do more than that to continue to rise and stay on top and again, yes that may result in the schools becoming more stressful overall.

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I have never completed such surveys, so I wonder if the samples are representative of the overall student population. I am sure the Princeton Review rankings are not completely illegitimate since the company itself is pretty reputable. Plus the rankings complement Vandy’s marketing strategy and help increase the application volume.

@bernie12 Actually 14 years is quite long considering the fact that USNEWS started ranking colleges in the mid 80s. Moreover, back in the 80s USNEWS had a different ranking methodology where public schools were ranked much higher than they are now. After they made the switch in the early 1990s I believe??? Vanderbilt’s ranking had become stable in the top25-top20 range.

Also, I don’t think Vanderbilt’s admissions policy contribute much to the rise in rankings. Every top 20 school is converging to a 10% acceptance rate it’s not like Vandy’s the only one doing that. Rice University’s scores are also very high and its acceptance rate is just slightly higher than Vandy’s and yet there is a tie. That suggests Vandy is as good as Rice in other criteria.

Looking forward I am confident that Vanderbilt will remain in the top 14 - 20 range in the following decades (14 is possible because there is a possibility of a tie between Brown Cornell Vandy and …). If you click on the ranking for each college you will see a score. That score helps you identify the gap between schools and if the lower ranked schools are catching up. For the 2017 Ranking, the scores are:

8 Duke/Penn Score: 92

12 Northwestern score: 89

14 Brown score: 87

15 Cornell, Rice, Vandy, Notre Dame score: 85

19 WUSTL score: 84

20 Emory Berkeley &GTown score: 78

23 USC score: 77

Not saying emory/gtown is a worse school than Vandy but at least using USNEWS’ methodology they are in danger of dropping out of the top 20. This actually happened last year. Once you get above #20 the rankings are fairly stable.

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@Otemachi : No, I don’t think the scores do much either. I think they provide a little bump and certainly help a little, but what could drive increases are retention and graduation rate (I wonder if these are tied together), so the quality of life boosts can help schools climb or stay in certain ranking levels. I wasn’t the one who suggested that the rank is tied to that, but what I do imagine is that perhaps yield and admissions rate may rank higher as well in terms of how things are weighted. So a change in admissions policies will help with those things

Those scores are also effected by PR. Emory, Berkeley, and GTown (lesser so than the other two) to some extent are actually lower on the admissions scale than those places too. I honestly would not argue that UCB is worse for undergraduate. In fact I would say that places like it and Michigan are better than some private schools despite this value placed on “small” in many ways. I think USNWR to some extent is a “beauty pageant”. The new ranking that came out gave WUSTL a huge boost and kept Emory and VU kind of where they are (Emory was like 17 and VU was 20) and I think it took some other things into account. But there is no doubt that USNWR propagates interesting admissions schemes by these elite schools. Because some of them are so closely ranked even context of that score. Also, USNWR likes to change metrics for whatever reason. So some schools may have recently become “unstable” and some schools became stable because you simply reweight to create a bigger divide. Like I think PR was relatively recently reweighted. Emory had a bad patch with terrible public relations over departmental closures and such and UCB has sort of a budget crisis. I personally think that something like that score are more sensitive to things like that than actual quality. In addition, Emory (don’t know about GT) does lag in yield, admissions rate, and retention to some extent (okay admissions metrics to a VERY large extent). I am betting that if any of those changed it would become “stable” and likely even better regarded in terms of PR(I really bet you that a lot of peer evaluations take selectivity into account and so do guidance counselor scores when they were weighted). Interesting that that pecking order does also seem to follow different admissions thresholds. I would argue that many of the variables going into that score are interdependent on pretty much everything but quality. Outputs put most of those places between 15 and 20 very close to each other (and maybe some publics better even when controlled for size), as well as GTown and of course UCB (poor thing dares to be public. How sad). The USNWR scores and movement in the top 20 I think track somewhat closely to admissions games for a reason despite single components measuring it not being weighted that highly. Those metrics will spill over into some other ratings.

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@bernie12 @Otemachi
Yes Emory lags in retention rate, graduation rate, student selectivity, and effective marketing. These things effect ones Peer reputation and Councilor reputation score. This has no barring on level of academics or even prestige. In fact Emory’s councilor ranking is very poor at 28, while Vandy is 15 . If that is the case Vandy and Emory’s Peer reputation score must be the same or very close. I think they are actually a 4.1 and 4.0 respectively if I am not mistaken. I’m not sure how Emory is going to improve graduation and retention rates, but they seem to be working on selectivity. Also accepting more ED applicants IMO will increase yield and retention rates.

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Yeah, if I had to guess: https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings

I don’t know about other schools, but Emory suffers pretty much in the area I said it did and maybe only marginally in academic reputation vs. the series of schools above it. The other things effect and who knows what that means. Retention and graduation could easily be influenced by quality of life for example especially if not at an Ivy or near top 10. Again, I think students with a kind of “cushy” life style are less likely to complain about other things. But as far as I can tell, VU and Emory seem similar academically to me just based upon the output and curriculum and how things are set up at each. VU may just be a “nicer” place and in addition admittedly offers much more financial aid for those in the income brackets it usually yields. This certainly helps with admissions patters, graduation, and retention. Idea is that you don’t need to be HYP or even some other places academically to keep the students comfortable. Although honestly, I really cannot complain about Emory’s position. It is a newb. Even when the ranking metrics screwed up and put it at 9 and Cornell at like 8, that was hard to trust. It should be impressed that its outputs and research infrastructure can go head to head with some near ranked schools. It was literally a teaching university before 1995.

I do not know what all this obsession with a fast rise in the rankings is. I would rather it become truly good (as in more so resembling many of the top 10) academically so that it can fry much bigger fish rather than sit here and split hairs like this. It needs to do a better job (and yes even VU) and go beyond just being a “nice” place. I personally wouldn’t even be satisfied if it rose to 10 or 15 if I knew and felt it did not belong there academically (the output and curricula must demonstrate it, not just USNWR). Why settle for this mess of “well USNews says X and we will celebrate it despite all the actual improvements we need to make”? I am just over the superficiality to a large degree. It seems to have worked to play these ranking games but I really want them to do more. Anyone can present with pretty pictures but when you look deeper you have to admit otherwise. I am just not the type to play along and say : “yep all roses” even if I am proud of my institution.

I need it to do more than impress in USNWR and make students “happy” with elements that matter so little in the long run. Again, nice distractions that some of the very best students and faculty can see right past and will pass up for less “cushy” situations to get more quality in areas that matter. Hold your school to a higher standard than a ranking and qol. It pays off…ask Harvard and Princeton students, and even Stanford students, a demanding bunch outside of the qol and ranking arena. Those students are like “we are top ranked but we are not stupid”. If you ever look the Crimson for example, you have articles that name professors who teach well or do not teach well. It is a different world. At many schools in this tier, how often do you even see much articles on the details of academics? And I do not think this is because academics at them are just better than HYP so no one complains. I think it is because those students are more “aware” and willing to demand changes and point out flaws because they truly expect real excellence in those areas (they will not be distracted or tricked and will squeal when they recognize this to be the case). When my and some other schools can attract more of these “I expect excellence in this and will hold you accountable” then I will truly tip my hat. Again right now, it is like: “you have come a long way doing X, now time to move on”.

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@bernie12 If all of these schools in discussion improved academics to the level of the top 10 schools then ranking will rise accordingly ( ties are allowed more than 10 schools can be top 10) in my opinion. Yes Emory is the new guy and has risen steadily in the rankings, apparently about a 5 point rise every decade so far, which shows its steady improvements and stable increase in prestige.

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@bernie12, your posts have gotten to long for me to read to catch up to all that you have written the past day. Mostly you have thoughtful comments. But from several posts ago, I question your characterization of Vanderbilt “pandering” to students. Offering full merit scholarships by the hundreds, great FA to those that need it, a beautiful campus, excellent dining hall food and dorms is meeting the school’s mission, so I don’t see these things as “pandering.” Such things attract great students. I think what you are really trying to suggest is that you object to those schools that provide these positive things while at the same time neglecting academics. I see no sign of that at Vandy. However, I did suspect that when I mentioned the really excellent food at Vandy, that someone, somewhere would object to that as being unimportant. That it was you, is OK by me. =D> Other metrics in which Vandy stacks up well against many other universities including JHU, UChicago, Yale and Princeton is the relative safety of the neighborhoods in the immediate area. :smiley:

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Vanderbilt is obviously doing the right thing by offering generous merit aid to the most exceptional applicants. At my graduation two out of the four founders medalists (students graduating with first honors) were CV (full tuition) scholars.
Also hats off to my school for being able to meet the demonstrated financial needs of all eligible students with grants only, BUT I personally think this may be wasteful in some cases. For example I observe that on Fridays the lecture attendance rates tend to drop especially for classes with no attendance requirements, although I don’t know if those who skipped class are on financial aid or not. I really don’t think anyone who values his/her education should do that.

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@Sam-I-Am : All schools pander to students. I am arguing that new Ivies outside of financial aid packages should stop pandering in certain ways and focus on something else. Financial aid is fine, but other forms of pandering that I see done at my alma mater and other new Ivies appear to have an effect that may not be the best in the long run and could indeed be a wasteful distraction that we all enjoyed admittedly (like at Emory, Clairmont is a freaking resort almost…great now that space was used on that and the core of campus appears to be running out of academic space. In attempt to preserve the tree canopy of it and Atlanta, they have to resort to extremely disruptive projects that tear down a building and replace it with another. I thought it was bad when I attended but now…the poor incoming freshmen and sophomores…with stupid stuff like a new campus life center to show off on tours…whoopee!!)

@Otemachi
Interestingly, the weird thing about WUSTL and VU is that they do not attract too many truly low income students (Pell Grant recipients), so the fin. aid helps to pull in technically more well off folks (as defined by US government) who of course tend to score higher on the SAT. I am fairly comfortable with this, but naturally it is a trade off if you want increased SES diversity. There are places with even more aggressive aid that appear to I suppose admit more low SES people such as Harvard but it may not be actual admissions, so much as the fact that if H admits a low SES person who was cross-admitted somewhere, they have a very large chance of yielding them…like they do pretty much anyone admitted.

That pattern of attendance you observe may have NOTHING to do with that. Have certain sporting events become popular for students to attend? Old and even current studies of academic culture at Duke actually revealed that attendance was ultra low around home games for basketball to the point clubs would cancel meetings and some instructors would cancel class. There could be numerous things effecting attendance on certain days. And major social events that typically occur on friday other than even sports you know of?

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@Otemachi : Which school offering merit scholarships in the top 30 or so is making a bad decision by offering such merit scholarships?

Also, what is founders’ medals? Please tell me those are not GPA based. For the love of God please tell me they aren’t. I am sure those are amazing students but I sit here and pray that this was not the primary metric to give that award. It will give me faith in elite highered to know that this is not true (many of the commencement level awards at Emory are more focused on service or high levels of academic engagement and sometimes they are indeed schools, but I have seen many non-Scholars win as well…this is what you should want to see at VU because it validates that many other incoming students are often just as strong as those typically selected as for the merit scholarships. Emory has a Dean’s Achievement Scholarship, do y’all have something similar that basically rewards folks who demonstrated high scholarship once there? As in continuing scholarships?

Last I checked this was one of the areas we did well in but I think y’all could afford to improve some but it has been a while since I have checked (we actually seemed to have more awards and fellowships that funded continuing education after Emory at whatever graduate school and even some partnerships for St. Andrews…which btw, top European colleges also seem to be a different planet in comparison to some of the top schools here. A very different philosophy and type of rigor seems more common based on a friends’ experiences over there). If there hasn’t been any movement in this area, I will let you slide on the “wasted” financial aid, but I really prefer not to be hasty in such judgements. If anything, I would judge whether or not the folks with the good financial aid take more academic risks (as a lower monetary investment should allow them to I would hope). My friend just graduated and he seemed to, but he had a great HS background and may not have been typical, especially since he was pre-med (so within that sphere, minus say the BME major pre-meds, he may have been atypical).

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Yes, it seems as if there could still be some improvement in terms of large non-departmental internal scholarships at VU, but there is one major one I think, but it is need based methinks(https://ohs.vanderbilt.edu/scholarships/details/?get=181). Would be nice if the scholarship website discriminated between internal and external, but it was still easy to figure out/navigate.

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@bernie12
“Interestingly, the weird thing about WUSTL and VU is that they do not attract too many truly low income students.” That may be the case. Check out this NYTimes page. It shows that among ALL U.S. colleges Vanderbilt has the highest percentage of students coming from the top 0.1%, WUSTL is not far behind.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/vanderbilt-university

This above website also shows that the median income for Vanderbilt graduates are very high, even higher than Northwestern grads. I don’t know how credible this is, but at least this comes from NYtimes.

Vanderbilt is trying really hard to improve diversity. Opportunity Vanderbilt has dramatically increased SES diversity on campus. Additionally we now have a new program called Experience Vanderbilt which allows students to participate in whatever student organizations he/she would like without worrying about financial costs. Greek Life has signed the inclusivity agreement and there are now several non-white students even in those “top tier” frats/sororities

“Also, what is founders’ medals? Please tell me those are not GPA based.” Come on. If it really were GPA based, what happens when there are multiples seniors who earned a 4.0? Although I am not 100% sure, but basically what happens is all summa cum laude students receive an invitation to apply and then the dean and maybe several professors get to decide. GPA is only one component of the overall application. And they are amazing, yes. For example, this year’s founders medalist for VUSE is heading to MIT for a Phd.

“That pattern of attendance you observe may have NOTHING to do with that. Have certain sporting events become popular for students to attend?” There are sporting events occasionally but I am talking about every Friday throughout the entire semester. Moreover, attendance rates for 8AM classes are also lower. Are there sporting events at 8AM? No. But whatever. My point is even if there are sporting events consistent absences are unjustifiable. It is in our own interest to attend all classes.

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Otemachi, All the top universities are over represented with well funded students. It seems like they all need about 40% of full pay students in order to keep the lights on. Students from the failing 25% of US high schools have little to no chance of meeting the admission requirements for top universities. These students tend to be low income. Top universities are full of kids from academically enriched private, magnet, and top publics located in affluent areas near large cities. It’s no surprise is these kids tend to be well funded. It’s also no surprise that “need blind” universities accept students from these schools year after year, after year. So well funded parents sent their bright, overachieving kids to these high schools. So the cycle continues.

As for diversity VU is is more diverse in certain ways and less diverse in others. There are hundreds of ways to measure diversity. All universities lack diversity somewhere when you look at several diversity metrics. IMHO there is too much pseudodiversity in our top universities. Students may look different but on closer inspection they have the same: GPA, SAT, tax bracket, God, private/prep/magnet/elite public high school, EC’s, started a club, play soccer, the piano, and are pre-med.

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I think that the MOSAIC program at VU shows commitment to diversity and serves to recruit a diverse group of top students by notifying them of admission in February (even if they applied RD) and inviting them to campus before these MOSAIC students have heard from from any other schools, even if they applied there EA or ED. Back that up with merit scholarships and FA, and I see VU as a diversity leader.