Facts I have observed at Stanford, and some other top schools

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>I am currently an undergraduate at Stanford, who has done heavy research on college admissions since in High school. Below is the information I just emailed my old college counselor. Please keep in mind that the information may be biased, but they are basically the facts and practices I have come across. </p>

<li><p>THe way the admissions works, they look at citizenship. Most “asians” they accept are actually “American citizens” who happen to grow up or have lived abroad for some time of their life. The same applies to most east asians, ie. Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, and people from Hongkong. This is not to discourage international students from east asia to apply for top schools, but to give them a more realistic view. I believe there is only 1 Taiwanese citizen student in Stanford undergrad, and only one Japanese student in class of ‘12, but that student is an American citizen.</p></li>
<li><p>In admissions, they count the students’ citizenship (due to federal funding and financial aid). However, in the number of international students recorded, they count people who live abroad but are international students. By doing so, they are able to greatly increase the “proportion of internaitonal students”, increasing diversity while not giving up federal funding by accepting the same amount of foreign students. At Stanford, at least 1/3 of “international students” are American citizens. (or at least the ones I came across, which is an awful lot since I attended international orientation)</p></li>
<li><p>Yale has no Taiwanese student, not even American citizens that live in Taiwan. This is a fact from a fellow friend who grew up in Taiwan, but is an American citizen. He was deciding between Yale and Stanford, and talked to officers in both schools. </p></li>
<li><p>Ivy league and other top schools not giving out merit-based aid is a lie. Athletes get “merit” scholarships from recruiting, except it goes into their “need-based financial aid”. My friend had to negotiate with the school, that if he dropped out of the team his “need-based financial aid” will be significantly less. Also, MIT says they don’t recruit, but I happen to know a girl who got in last year in early November, because they wanted her to swim for them. I also know some friends who got scholarships from agencies that work directly with Stanford University. Those scholarships look at financial background, but is also heavily merit-based. I don’t remember the name of the agency.</p></li>
<li><p>This is from personal experience. Almost all international asian students who get in top schools are internaitonal [insert subject] olympiad gold medal winners. (especially at MIT) This is due to the education system set up in Asia, where it is very hard to do any extracurricular activities and little incentive to organize, say a community service project. Very few international students can get in by going through the “American-student route”, which is “being well-rounded, join a few clubs, hold a few leadership positions, write excellent essays, and do community service”. (Obviously, everything I say is based off the assumption that they take hard classes and ace them). That said, even for international students that are not asians (at Stanford), almost all of them go to an English-speaking secondary school (American school, British School, International School). I’m not sure about other schools. </p></li>
<li><p>Disproving myth: “Stanford favors Californian applicants”. This is because a large amount of people like to go to college at least at the same region/side of the country. Although this is politically incorrect, most of the more competitive applicants in the west coast come from CA (just like how most competitive applicants on the east coast come from NY). This is not directly due to the fact that Stanford favors Californian applicants. </p></li>
<li><p>Advice for international students: Please don’t gamble on applying for financial aid when you can pay! I did that for U Penn, and got rejected from Jerome Fisher’s Program and the School of Engineering. Not to sound arrogent, Penn School of Engineering is a very easy school compared to many other top engineering schools in the nation. As for MIT, there is a quota of 8% of internaitonal students, which translates to 3-4% acceptance rate depending of the number of applicants. So need-blind doesn’t help. The only schools that seems to treat international students equally are Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, but I have little information on them so I can’t comment further on whether they practice what they preach. </p></li>
<li><p>For the most part, affirmative action doest not accept underqualified minorities. They just reject very very qualified whites and asians. For simplicity’s sake, let’s say one has to reach 90 to be “qualified” for a college. Generally 70% of the applicants are “qualified” to do well in the school (I didn’t make this number up, this came straight from MIT’s press 2 years ago). Affirmative action takes place to accept underrepresented minorities that are 91, while rejecting a white applicant or asian that may be 98. Now, I understand this sounds harsh and a large number, but let’s imagine the number is 99.1 and 99.2. Perhaps that makes it psychologically more comfortable to absorb this information. So while affirmative action may hurt some people’s chances, they DO NOT compromise on the qualifications of underrepresented minorities, at least for the most part. A lot of hispanics and black people I came across at Stanford are very talented in their area. </p></li>
<li><p>A lot of internaitonal students that recieve scholarship money, recieve them from outside sources. For example, Malaysians and Singaporeans can apply for scholarship money to come to the US for college, and most that do come are on scholarship. I am not sure if colleges count those as “international students who recieve some sort of financial aid” on their statistics, because it is very misleading.</p></li>
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<p>I do hope you might find some of the information helpful, while keeping the balance between being idealistic about college admissions and realistic about the practices that do not match what is said on their website. For example, during Stanford’s information session at my high school, I asked the regional rep whether applying for financial aid as international student would decrease the chance. I basically cornered her with words, but she still refuse to admit it would, only said it “might be a little bit tougher”. </p>

<p>Lastly, I would like to end by a quote I stole from a friend here at Stanford, “Most politically incorrect comments are very true, except they don’t apply to every single person in that category. That’s what make them politically incorrect and people don’t like them. But they are still true for the most part, just that there are some exceptions”. The same applies for college admissions. While the practice may seem what is is, there are always exceptions, such as the 20-30 international students who recieve financial aid from Stanford’s pocket. </p>

<p>Best of luck for everyone who’s applying this year.</p>

<p>wow thank you for this info.</p>

<p>However, i would like to know if you had any experience with canadian students? are they in the international category or the american one?</p>

<p>yes, i do know quite a few number of Canadians.
They are in the international category, BUT for certain school,s they are eligible for needblind aid (along with Mexicans). In general, if there is a difference in difficulty to get in, it's "non Northern Americans" > "Northern Americans non-US Citiznes" > "US Citizen/permanent residents". Again, the reason is for some colleges they offer need blind financial aid for canadians and mexicans. Also, for some colleges, (I forgot which...), int'll students arent allowed to apply for financial aid afte rthey get in without financial aid. However, canadians and mexicans are.</p>

<p>quite helpful. I applied SCEA to Stanford without asking for aid as an international, so I hope this goes well.
also explains why no one at our school has gotten into MIT. that international student "quota" is pretty harsh</p>

<p>I have a question. I'm a Chinese citizen but US permanent resident. I have lived in US for 14 years and have already applied for citizenship. Since the nearest INS office is Miami, there is a longer turnaround for citizenship applications. Do I count as an international student?</p>

<p>
[quote]
US permanent resident

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Both permanent residents and citizens are domestic students.</p>

<p>Thank you for clarifying that!!! It freaked me out when he said "American Citizens." I thought he meant "citizens" not including permanent residents.</p>

<p>I can understand the reason why elite schools are so harsh on Chinese students...
a lot of my Chinese friends are applying as "class president", "#1 in school", "straight A student" etc.
It might sounds very impressive. But in China, these can easily be made up. And I bet some of my friend's test scores aren't theirs. But I guess AOs are smart enough to identify them. =]</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, MIT says they don't recruit, but I happen to know a girl who got in last year in early November, because they wanted her to swim for them.

[/quote]

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here -- MIT emphatically does not admit students early because of sports recruiting or for any other reason.</p>

<p>MIT does conduct athletic recruiting, but athletics are not privileged over any other extracurricular activity, and coaches have very little sway (if any) in the admissions process.</p>

<p>About the Chinese students, I think the schools prefer American-born Chinese, naturalized citizen/PR, and Chinese citizen, in that order. China opened its door to the west in the early 1980s, most of those early Chinese students went to the graduate schools in the US. Their children were born in the late 1980s or early 1990s, and they are about the age to apply to colleges. That is one of the reasons those schools prefer them than those PR or overseas Chinese now than before. Last year was probably the first year the trend started.</p>

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>How does coming from very under-represented country compare to being an URM in the U.S.? Does it affect chances of international admission, as much as URM does for domestical? Thanks</p>

<p>Again, colleges seek diversity. Therefore, coming from a country where no one applies (i dont want to list any particular country here), is definitely much easier than say, countries in east asia. Those countries are also ones that usually don't need international olympiad.</p>

<p>hey guys. i am applying for greencard so i am not a u.s citizen but i am currently adopted by u.s citizens. also, my family makes below 15,000 for family of four. will this hurt me?</p>

<p>Thank you for sharing~~~helps me a lot...I applied for Yale's SCEA....result coming soon Bless me</p>

<p>what about Asians who have lived here for 7+ years but still don't have green cards? You mentioned citizenship. But no green card, no matter how many years you have lived in the U.S., means no federal aid. So by citizenship, do you mean having the qualities of a devout citizen or having a green card?</p>

<p>Allow me to repeat myself: </p>

<p>Both permanent residents and citizens are domestic students. </p>

<p>The implication of that statement is that other persons are international students from the point of view of United States colleges.</p>

<p>TheBlackLantern,</p>

<p>I'm not sure which place you'll be in, because I remember some colleges count those "in the process of obtaining a green card" domestic if you provide the papers to prove it. Others don't. However, since you're adopted, I'm guessing you might be because it's your parents that are paying. Since your parents are US citizens, they paid tax, so maybe that makes u eligible for federal aid (since you're a dependent of a US citizen) But please check with the individual college. Good luck!</p>

<p>On the Yale admitted students' website, it shows there is an admit from Taiwan.</p>

<p>is it '13?
if not, is it admit, or matriculate?
my friend was admitted but didn't matriculate.</p>

<p>We know that top schools don't accept under-qualified minorities, but the minorities that are accepted are under-qualified when compared to everyone else.</p>