<p>Our son is looking at a math major. Every department chair/prof he had talked to suggested that no matter how well he does in high school math to start at the first level math class for the major. First, it’s an adjustment to college and they don’t want the kids dropping out of math majors because things move faster in college and second, they may teach it differently which will be important down the road for other classes. Many of these schools don’t give credit for AP tests in your major anyway so it really doesn’t matter. Our son had one of the top scores in the National Math Exam in our state for seniors (taken as a junior) and he still is planning on taking whatever 100 level math class is required for his major. It’s about protecting your GPA as well as learning it their way once you get to college.</p>
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<p>Purdue uses something called the ALEKS placement test, which is apparently in use by other schools as well.</p>
<p>[Undergrad</a> Study in Mathematics](<a href=“http://www.math.purdue.edu/academic/undergrad/placement]Undergrad”>Placement and ALEKS Learning Module Information - Department of Mathematics - Purdue University)</p>
<p>To give our school credit, they now recommend everyone taking Calc to retake it when they go to college, BUT, I still feel for those (many) who test into remedial classes (Pre-Calc/College Alg) after thinking they were taking college level classes and doing well.</p>
<p>Re: #41</p>
<p>When I was in college, the top math major undergraduates did start in more advanced courses, often in the junior level courses (real analysis, abstract algebra, etc.) as freshmen. They did fine, and would probably have been very bored retaking freshman calculus that they had already taken and aced before.</p>
<p>These days, many colleges have old final exams for various courses available on their web sites. Students unsure of whether to use AP or other credit to start in a more advanced course may want to review the old final exams for the courses that may be skipped before deciding whether or not to skip.</p>
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<p>Basically an admission that the school’s math courses are of poor quality (though if most students struggle to score even a 2 or 3 on the AB test, that is self-evident)?</p>
<p>ucbalumnus–how long ago was that though? Most of the schools he is considering do placement test so if he scores very high on those they will put him into more advanced classes, however, not knowing really how good the math program is at any school, I think it is sound advice. Talking to friends in other schools in our area, our math program is more difficult than what they have, for example, move into some of the smaller schools and the highest class they offer is pre-calc. Then individual students at the school vary. One of DS’s friends finished all of the high school math offerings as a sophomore and is going to take some classes at a local college. A student in our oldest son’s class tested out off all COLLEGE level math and was doing a specially designed program for him starting freshman year in HIGH SCHOOL. There is just too many variables here and that is why they give placement tests. If your child tests out of the entry math classes, great, if not, WHY would you want them to struggle?</p>
<p>I am not actually surprised that many calculus students would fail a pre-calc exam, even if they are actually very well prepared for college math. Heck, I am a PhD candidate in math and even I would probably fail a trig exam right now (even though I could pass calc or algebra or geometry exams with flying colors). </p>
<p>Trig identities are easy to forget and aren’t actually used all that much. It’s important to know that they exist (so that students can look them up if needed) and how to use them, but it’s not necessary to know them by heart. Don’t need to have all of the various relationships in an ellipse memorized either.</p>
<p>Not having trig identities and other formulas at the forefront of one’s mind might be detrimental on a placement exam, but would not be a problem in an actual math class.</p>
<p>b@r!um–good point. It’s kind of like the geometry portion on the ACT-our kids had that in 9th grade and haven’t really touched it since. 2 years is a long time to remember something like that. Our state needs to figure this out too since they are testing kids on math most of the top students learned in 8th grade–try testing them on pre-calc/calc or heck, even algebra in 11th grade :D.</p>
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<p>Most struggling to get a 2 or 3? We’d get one or two 2/3’s each year and some years (not every year) we’d get a 4 or 5. Those students did a bit extra out of class. (I knew them and talked with them.) Most students would get a 1 IF they took the test. Some didn’t bother.</p>
<p>Now we’ve dropped AP in favor of dual enrollment - taught by the same teacher(s), of course, but this way the kids can get credit. I’m told it’s a much better program than AP. The actual knowledge hasn’t changed (as evidenced by the placement tests). We still have a few who do well, but not the majority.</p>
<p>Yes, IMO, our school fails our top students. Their concern is directed at the lower levels - those who can’t pass the state tests. They don’t worry about those who score proficient or higher.</p>
<p>Quite a few years back, right before I pulled my own kids out to homeschool them, I was told by our middle school principal that “School is not for the gifted student. Those students will do well wherever they go and no matter what you do. School is for the average student and around here the average student goes to cc, joins the military, or works for _____.” We are here to educate them and the state mandates we work with those who are lower.</p>
<p>I’ll freely admit, my school fits what they want to do very well, but I disagree about top kids. At our school, they suffer as they are woefully underprepared when they go to colleges. Some do well anyway - but they’ll admit there’s a sharp learning curve. Those who do the best learned to start doing more outside of school, but few have that initiative. Most feel if they are getting As, they are at the top of their game.</p>
<p>Incidentally, don’t think I haven’t tried… I want a different math curriculum - too bad. I point out that other schools have kids who do well. I’m told we don’t have that caliber of kid here (NOT true). My own two older guys have test scores putting them in the top 3% and 1% nationally after just pulling them at 9th and 7th respectively. They just tell me my kids have my genetics. While that may be somewhat true - they were with peers when in school - and not always the highest. There are other kids with their caliber, but they just don’t get the foundation they need.</p>
<p>When an 8th grade English teacher tells me she has to have her whole class read a novel that’s at a 4th grade level because she MUST do something ALL kids can handle, there’s something wrong. SHE doesn’t want to do this. The system requires it.</p>
<p>When elementary math teachers have told their students there’s no reason they need to understand fractions - they just have to know how to use the buttons on their calculator - and when their idea of teaching the quadratic formula is making sure kids know to put parentheses in properly in the calculator - well - it just doesn’t work. When all of the same math classes have to do the exact same problems regardless of whether it’s a senior trying to pass Alg 2 to graduate or the freshman who is advanced, the material has to be dumbed down enough for the former.</p>
<p>I could go on and on…</p>
<p>And I’ll remind you that my school tests “average” for the nation. An A/B student failing placement tests may be testing right where they belong.</p>
<p>I think that part of the problem is that in high school one can get good grades by doing a lot of things that don’t reflect material actually learned and understood.</p>
<p>For example, in high school my son received a B in calculus. He “lost points” and others “gained points” for things like not doing well on notebook checks, not turning in a poster about a famous mathematician every marking period, and not bringing a pie to class on pi day.</p>
<p>However, he did place directly into the required calculus class–and broke the class curve with a 98% for the quarter. So it is obvious that he was well prepared; more so, probably, than a classmate who got a higher grade than he did, never missing a chance for extra points for things like posters and pies.</p>
<p>Creekland, I think our kids go to the same HS! LOL-
we had the same issues.</p>
<p>The idea that most kids at your school get a 1 baffles me. At my school it was almost unheard of to get a 4, almost everyone got 5s. At least for Calc BC. Not sure about Calc AB.</p>
<p>I think there is a disconnect between the idea that AP Calc (or AP stat, or AP US History for that matter) is the equal to college courses… and the reality. I don’t think college credit should be given for AP Scores, they should be used as a measure of success in college admissions, and maybe used as a quasi-placement test, but they are in no way equal to college courses. The AP exam is tailored to certain topics, and teachers who have been teaching APs for years have figured out what those topics are, and teach to those topics. I’ve worked both in high schools (as an administrator/ counselor) and in Universities (In the housing dept.), and I’ve heard teachers openly discussing it. At many schools and school systems, having kids getting 4s and 5s on AP exams is a great thing for a teacher. One of my Son’s AP teachers would literally tell them that they would skip over certain things because they were unlikely to show up on the AP test. They are rarely all-inclusive classes, and mostly skim the subject, rather then going as deep as a college course might. Also, it is a high school course, many have chances for the students to make up missed assignments, or earn back extra credit by writing a paper on a famous math person. The teachers are also hit and miss. Again, one of my son’s AP teachers decided to spend 50% of each class gossiping about the other teachers. I’m talking about their sex life, how much alcohol they drink, the like. It is telling that all of her students got 3s on the exam, while the other teacher who taught that class had many 4s and a few 5s. And this is at one of the best high schools in the area, not a crappy school.</p>
<p>The only thing APs do is make students feel like they are ready for college, just because they passed a multiple choice test and ********ted a couple decent essays. Of course there are some great teachers. My son had one for AP Human geography, really engaged the kids and got them to think in a more collegiate way.</p>
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<p>Yes, it was a while ago (and the college was much less selective then than now, so a much higher percentage of freshmen had to take remedial courses, but those are the opposite of the top math students taking real analysis as freshmen).</p>
<p>It is much more reasonable to follow the college’s placement tests and guidelines and/or review old final exams from the college’s math courses, than to assume that all students, no matter how good they are in math, should automatically start in a course no more advanced than freshman calculus.</p>
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<p>Seems like whatever college has approved the dual enrollment nature of the course does not have very high standards for freshman calculus. Either it is not enforcing a standard equal to its own courses, or its own courses are of poor quality (and if it is a community college from which students hope to transfer to a four year school, it is doing those students a disservice by not teaching them an important prerequisite for many majors properly).</p>
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<p>None of this would cause someone to score low on a placement exam… Trig functions and circles, yes/maybe, but not identities nor ellipses. They’ve almost disappeared from current high school curricula because they aren’t found on tests. Kids are more likely to have ellipses covered in a Physics class doing planetary motion.</p>
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<p>It is a cc and, for the most part, the only schools who will always accept the credit are state schools because they have to. Private schools have wised up and tend to only give elective credit if anything.</p>
<p>I have no idea if students taking the class at the cc would be better off or not. Mine did Calc at home. We skipped the AP test because I preferred having mine take it again at their 4 year schools. Oldest told me he was incredibly bored, but got an easy A. He wished he had taken the test to place out. Middle is heading pre-med so can use the A even if he’s bored. I think he’s well prepared (likely would have had a 5 on the BC test). Time will tell.</p>
<p>With what I’ve seen of the Calc classes at school there’s no way I was going to pay $700 per class for the opportunity to see if it was the same at the cc when it was far less expensive to do it at home.</p>
<p>Agree w/ Creekland</p>
<p>Teachers don’t want to dumb down material or inflate grades. We’re forced to by administration and parents.</p>
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We’re going to agree to disagree on this. Just as there is great variation in the teaching of AP Calc across HS, there is great variation in its teaching across colleges. There is no guarantee a college will teach it better than a HS with an engaged, knowledgeable teacher.</p>
<p>my son as an advanced math student has taken Linear Algebra, Calc 3, Differential equations, and some other math course I can’t remember at the local community college. It is a well regarded community college. If he had to take a math placement test at a college, he would probably not do well if he did not go back and study the topics at the Algebra II level. He took Algebra II in 8th grade. </p>
<p>Luckily, with the DE credits, he will not have to take a placement test. But he is considering re-taking Calc 3, mostly because he does not feel as confident in those skills (despite the A in the class), and he wants to have a strong base in that class. The Linera Algebra and Differential Equations courses he felt that all topics in the book were covered, and he felt confident in them. </p>
<p>So I agree with a number of people with varying opinions on this thread. Some students should retake some classes because of poor skills, or because of poor teaching (which ever the case may be).</p>
<p>But I do not think that all classes need to be repeated, whether they are AP classes, or DE classes. Why would my son need to retake Lit or Lang classes if he did well on the AP exam and plans to go into a math or CS field? And why would a lib arts student need to retake calc if they did well on the exam and plan to go into a liberal arts field that does not require more math? It seems like this is another way for colleges to increase revenue to me.</p>