fake teacher recs - what should i do?

Applying to College
221

<p>"How do you feel about kids who have multiple teachers write their recommendations and then screen them as in they don't waive their right to view the recommendations and select which ones they will send colleges?"</p>

<p>Is all the information accurate? Is it a direct violation of the contract the student signed? Remember, the college knows that the student didn't waive his rights. It's public information. If it doesn't violate the rules to which the student agreed, why would the college have a problem with it? They know the situation completely.</p>

<p>"In my opinion and many others', this practice is just a mere step below forging a recommendation. That's why many teachers refuse to write recommendations unless the student waives their right to read them."</p>

<p>That's the decision of the teachers.</p>

222

<p>poetsheart, Did you actually read this entire thread? We have already established that even if the cheater's statement was a joke, no harm is done to anyone if OP reports what he knows and the recs are found to be legitimate. No further evidence is needed.</p>

<p>Newjack - You've got the "intent" part of criminal law confused. The intent applies to the criminals, NOT the informants.</p>

<p>And yes, I used the murder analogy to make a point. OBVIOUSLY, murder and forgery are not the same. But they are both wrong. I'm sensing that some of you would not turn in a friend for forgery and think that is okay, but would turn in someone who was not your friend.</p>

223

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They never did that. I never had an issue with people doing wrong things, because there was supervision such that wrongdoing was immediately and swiftly (and justly, might I add), punished.

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<p>Hmmm… seems like you may not have been paying much attention then. Not really surprising considering your posts. <em>kidding</em></p>

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A man slips a cashier a bill that's obviously counterfeit. Does the cashier have a right to know that he's getting crap money? Yes. It's not policing. The kid told the OP he forged them. The OP is doing Yale, the teachers, and school, and other applicants all a favor by reporting this incident. If he had nothing, he would be unjustified. He has a right and an obligation to clear this up.

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<p>This is a horrible example because it literally is the job of the cashier to report counterfeit bills. Not doing so is not in the interest of the business, and, generally speaking, employees are hired to do what is in the interest of the business.</p>

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Not true. Yale deserves to know who it's getting. How does that depend on what time it is? Are you honestly saying that Yale doesn't deserve accuracy on applications?

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<p>How is it not true? It’s great you think that but can you back it up? As for the other part, you’re using a straw man argument. No one is advocating that applicants should lie on their applications and you know it. Don’t resort to distorting positions to make your point; actually try to make your own point.</p>

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Yale benefits. If you don't believe me, ask the adcoms yourselves. Ask what they would do. And no one has to benefit for it to be right.

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<p>How do they benefit provided the OP’s allegations are true?</p>

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Let others police themselves, is what you said. Why then you would say that the OP shouldn't report because YOU don't like his motives? I don't understand how your advice conveniently doesn't apply to situations to which you don't want it. What is policing anyway? What fits in that category? Plus, I already said that the motives don't matter in whether he should report. It makes a difference only in how pure his motives are, obviously.

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<p>You’re not listening again like you weren’t in kindergarten. ;)</p>

<p>His actions clearly affect other people’s lives. Not only the student he is reporting but the student’s family as well.</p>

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I fail to see how that's relevant. If it's out of malice, it's still right to report. It's just wrong that he had bad intentions. I haven't seen any evidence or support for the idea that reporting out of malice is unjustified, while reporting with good intentions is somehow okay.

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<p>If intentions don’t matter, why do we care about them? As for an example, take a look at our justice system.</p>

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Why must there be a gain? I don't remember anyone establishing that actions that are ethically correct always have to have someone gain something.

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<p>Uhhh… do you even know what ethics is about? </p>

<p>Ethics is about considering the consequences of how we choose to act, so yes, we should always try to make sure that when we act we do more good than harm.</p>

224

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Is all the information accurate? Is it a direct violation of the contract the student signed? Remember, the college knows that the student didn't waive his rights. It's public information. If it doesn't violate the rules to which the student agreed, why would the college have a problem with it? They know the situation completely.

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<p>I said the student doesn't waive their right.</p>

<p>Anyway, you think that simply because the rules imply it is okay to do this that it's okay and that it's unethical in that it's dishonest?</p>

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You've got the "intent" part of criminal law confused. The intent applies to the criminals, NOT the informants.

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<p>You've confused the point I was making which was that intentions matters.</p>

<p>Anyway, intentions matter whether the person is the defendant, plaintiff, witness, judge, etc.</p>

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And yes, I used the murder analogy to make a point. OBVIOUSLY, murder and forgery are not the same. But they are both wrong. I'm sensing that some of you would not turn in a friend for forgery and think that is okay, but would turn in someone who was not your friend.

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<p>Not what anyone is saying or suggesting at all whatsoever. Also, the OP isn't even friends with this kid.</p>

225

<p>Newjack,</p>

<p>No, OP's personal relationship with the cheater is irrelevant. Even if OP made up the entire story and only wanted to hurt this kid, IT WOULD NOT MATTER, because nothing would happen to the Yalie if the recs are legitimate.</p>

<p>The only way OP's "hatred" toward the cheater would have any bearing on this scenario is if you hold the opinion that a friend shouldn't turn in a friend for forgery, so therefore it is wrong to turn in his enemy. That is where I say your thinking is wrong-headed.</p>

226

<p>Also, I wonder why you think it is too late to turn in the cheater. The school term doesn't start for another couple of weeks. I have no doubts that there are hundreds (maybe even thousands) of students in the rejected or waitlist pile who would jump at the chance to attend Yale.</p>

<p>Further, what about the teachers who were the victims of the forgery? Do you not think the potential damage done to his/her reputation is worth protecting? What if the cheater turns out to be a cheater, or worse, at Yale? Why would Yale admissions officers believe any recs written by these teachers in the future?</p>

227

<p>"Hmmm… seems like you may not have been paying much attention then. Not really surprising considering your posts. <em>kidding</em>"</p>

<p>There were like 10 kids, and 3 teachers. It's not as if anyone could do anything. We were in a huge room, and didn't interact really. In fact, I used to wreck other kids' block castles. I was certainly punished.</p>

<p>"This is a horrible example because it literally is the job of the cashier to report counterfeit bills. Not doing so is not in the interest of the business, and, generally speaking, employees are hired to do what is in the interest of the business."</p>

<p>You misunderstood it. You witness this event. The cashier doesn't notice. Now look at the example again.</p>

<p>"How do they benefit provided the OP’s allegations are true?"</p>

<p>Ask them if they want people who forge recs in their school. If the answer is yes, then they benefit.</p>

<p>"How is it not true? It’s great you think that but can you back it up? As for the other part, you’re using a straw man argument. No one is advocating that applicants should lie on their applications and you know it. Don’t resort to distorting positions to make your point; actually try to make your own point."</p>

<p>I'm not. If you felt that Yale deserves to know who it's getting, you would advocate telling. If not, then clearly not screwing the kid who lied over is more important to you. It's all a matter of priorities. You have your list, I have mine. Where does Yale knowing that it's getting accurate applications fall? </p>

<p>"His actions clearly affect other people’s lives. Not only the student he is reporting but the student’s family as well."</p>

<p>But the student lied. Of course his actions affect others. But the student who forged took a huge risk by lying, and got caught. I think that's somewhat relevant, at least...</p>

<p>"If intentions don’t matter, why do we care about them? As for an example, take a look at our justice system."</p>

<p>Someone responded to this. The intentions that matter are those of the forger. The intentions of the witness don't matter so long as his statements are accurate. In this case, the intentions of the OP don't matter at all because the actual evidence lies with the teachers.</p>

<p>"Uhhh… do you even know what ethics is about?"</p>

<p>Yes. Clearly you do not, given the next part of your post...</p>

<p>"Ethics is about considering the consequences of how we choose to act, so yes, we should always try to make sure that when we act we do more good than harm."</p>

<p>Yes. What does good mean? You haven't established that "good" means it benefits the most people, or anyone, for that matter. Ethics is: "The philosophical study of moral values and rules." Note that there is not a mention of it benefiting anyone at all, at least directly.</p>

<p>"Anyway, you think that simply because the rules imply it is okay to do this that it's okay and that it's unethical in that it's dishonest?"</p>

<p>They don't imply that it's okay. If the college allows students not to waive their rights, why is there an issue at all? The fact that the college KNOWS the student did not waive their right means that they are getting info about the student that may not be the whole picture. They also know that the student doesn't trust the teachers, or whatever.</p>

<p>The schools allow it. It's okay then. Because all that matters in terms of obligation to the schools is what the school wants. I don't see how not waiving your rights is dishonest. It doesn't matter anyway, because you're not deceiving anyone. The college knows.</p>

<p>"Anyway, intentions matter whether the person is the defendant, plaintiff, witness, judge, etc."</p>

<p>I really don't understand why you are bringing this up. The OP is not a single one of those things, even analogically. He's not even a witness.</p>

228

<p>Baelor: jsut because a person don't get punished doesn't mean that person's actions are right.</p>

<p>As I said before I think this is a minor case of forgery, if it was forging a check or loan then I would look at it differently. I assess the damage caused by the forging then deteremine how wrong it is. You can't give the same punishment to murder and to bank robbery. Because sure, both broke the law, but one caused a lot less damage.</p>

<p>Jaywalking, speeding, and littering, should people be punished. Yes. Is it wrong? Yes. Do we need to report every single case to the police? No Because sometimes we can overlook it.</p>

<p>And to tell you the truth, I seriously don't care about Yale or the teacher being misrepresented. I really don't care aboutt he student who forged his way in because these events don't effect the people I care about. Just because I don't care, it doesn't mean that I think the what the forger did is right. Just as if I don't really care if a bank on the east coast got robbed, but I know robbing a bank is wrong.</p>

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<p>"Baelor: jsut because a person don't get punished doesn't mean that person's actions are right."</p>

<p>That is true. Why on earth would you want more people to take actions that are wrong? Why would anyone not cheat? Honestly, if you don't think that more people will if it's never reported, we have way different beliefs on human nature.</p>

<p>"Because sure, both broke the law, but one caused a lot less damage."</p>

<p>I understand. They are different in terms of damage. But here, I don't really see why you wouldn't report. It takes zero effort, unlike snapping a picture of a litterer or noting a counterfeit bill or something like that. Why on earth wouldn't you report, even if it's not the biggest crime?</p>

<p>"Jaywalking, speeding, and littering, should people be punished. Yes. Is it wrong? Yes. Do we need to report every single case to the police? No Because sometimes we can overlook it."</p>

<p>Do you value Yale's right to have an accurate report of its applicants, at least guaranteed by the contract the applicant signed? How important is this right to you? In this scenario, what is more important than this right?</p>

<p>"I really don't care aboutt he student who forged his way in because these events don't effect the people I care about."</p>

<p>Ah, I see. I'm ego-centric, but not to that degree. How far does this extend to you? How bad does it have to be? Would the genocide in Darfur not matter because it doesn't affect people close to you? Or is it bad enough that it does matter?</p>

230

<p>After 16 pages of discussion, I have this simple message:</p>

<p>Report it. It is wrong.</p>

231

<p>How bad does it have to be to make me care as you asked? Well it would have to affect a lot of people or something that affect people I care about. I don't really care as much about a college student got in with a fake rec because the magnitude of the problems are different.</p>

232

<p>Why should you personally not caring affect the decision of the OP? Why shouldn't he report? Just because you personally don't think it's important? We've established that safety isn't really an issue. If you think differently, let's just place that aside for a second.</p>

233

<p>Baelor, I didn't bother to read your post because I said what I said. If you disagree, that's fine; I don't care.</p>

<p>That said, I would recommend you and Bay spend more time questioning your values. You all seem to still think in terms of right and wrong. I would hope that sometime in the near future you both learn that things are not this simple and realize that there are many gray areas when it comes to morality and ethics.</p>

234

<p>why shouldnt we report?</p>

<p>it really cant be explained. the no-snitchers like me have come to develop our mentalities after years of observing cheating and snitchers in our schools.</p>

<p>perhaps its because i went to a high school filled with cheaters (eg going into a teacher's room after hours, crawling across the room during a test to get answers, jacking test copies, etc). not snitching was the only way to maintain order in my school (and not get hated on).</p>

<p>thats just how it is. we just dont care because its how we grew up. i dont care if you think its the right thing to do or not, because its NOT a crime, so i DONT have to report anything. i know galoisien is itching to compare cheating to murder and rape, but the fact is he's just wrong.</p>

<p>and laxtaxi, the old lady analogy is wrong. that is a crime that directly affects another person. i wouldnt report littering or speeding, but definitely a beating.</p>

<p>edit: and yea its disturbing how the OP is doing it for personal reasons. its evident from his posts.</p>

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<p>I definitely did not get the impression that OP had the dilemma and was considering turning in Yalecheater for personal reasons. I took the moral dilemma at face value. </p>

<p>Zzzboy, I have definitely led a sheltered life if what you described is mainstream behavior today. </p>

<p>Newjack88, I respect your right to disagree with baelor. But to ask him to question his values, when his are consistent with what most people would consider to be moralistic, is disquieting. You may argue that there are reasons of expediency, practicality and safety - all of which I reject, but I have read and participated in this thread from the beginning and have come to understand the contrary view - but to suggest that baelor's morals are screwed up is just plain wrong. </p>

<p>Baelor's moral compass is 100% correct here. The question for debate isn't what is the moral and ethical right thing to do. The question is, or has become, do the expedient, practical and safety concerns outweigh the moral and ethically pure answer. I say no, you say yes, and I find that the fact that there has been such widely divergent views says that this we have found a tipping point for a moral dilemma.</p>

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Newjack88, I respect your right to disagree with baelor. But to ask him to question his values, when his are consistent with what most people would consider to be moralistic, is disquieting. You may argue that there are reasons of expediency, practicality and safety - all of which I reject, but I have read and participated in this thread from the beginning and have come to understand the contrary view - but to suggest that baelor's morals are screwed up is just plain wrong.

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<p>I am suggesting his moral reasoning skills are underdeveloped, and I think yours are too considering the fact that you think that what is considered ethical and moral should be based on how popular of a position it is.</p>

<p>I think you are right in saying that you have lived a rather sheltered life. I think you would be surprised that most people would agree with myself and zzzboy on this one and think that the OP is reporting this student simply because he dislikes him. </p>

<p>Most reasonable people would say let God and fate handle this one since little good will result from the OP reporting this now. It's not like some kid who was waitlisted will get this student's spot; it's too late for that.</p>

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Baelor's moral compass is 100% correct here. The question for debate isn't what is the moral and ethical right thing to do. The question is, or has become, do the expedient, practical and safety concerns outweigh the moral and ethically pure answer. I say no, you say yes, and I find that the fact that there has been such widely divergent views says that this we have found a tipping point for a moral dilemma.

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<p>I don't think you can make that claim since even you yourself have said you have lived a sheltered life.</p>

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<p>"Baelor, I didn't bother to read your post because I said what I said. If you disagree, that's fine; I don't care."</p>

<p>I know what you said. If you don't want to respond, that's nice. But you responded specifically to my post, so I dealt with your statements. If you don't want to read my response, that's your problem, not mine.</p>

<p>"That said, I would recommend you and Bay spend more time questioning your values. You all seem to still think in terms of right and wrong."</p>

<p>I hope that you do the same. I thought that you were at least open-minded, and then I realized that you thought we were just wrong because we disagreed with you. It doesn't feel like we're so different.</p>

<p>"I would hope that sometime in the near future you both learn that things are not this simple and realize that there are many gray areas when it comes to morality and ethics."</p>

<p>Oh, this situation is very simple. You argue as if total relativity is proven, and it's not. Once you back up that statement, I'll start thinking about what you said. There are many gray areas. Sometimes there's no right choice at all. But there's always a "best" choice. Thanks for making unproven assumptions about my ethical beliefs. It reflects more on you than on me, I assure you.</p>

<p>"it really cant be explained. the no-snitchers like me have come to develop our mentalities after years of observing cheating and snitchers in our schools."</p>

<p>In other words, it is completely unsupported and irrational? Or do you personally have no reason?</p>

<p>"perhaps its because i went to a high school filled with cheaters (eg going into a teacher's room after hours, crawling across the room during a test to get answers, jacking test copies, etc). not snitching was the only way to maintain order in my school (and not get hated on)."</p>

<p>If everyone who didn't cheat snitched, you would have order that was actually based on integrity and honesty. I've been in the same situation at my former school, trust me. It wasn't easy, and the "snitchers" weren't particularly liked, but it worked out in the end.</p>

<p>"thats just how it is. we just dont care because its how we grew up. i dont care if you think its the right thing to do or not, because its NOT a crime, so i DONT have to report anything. i know galoisien is itching to compare cheating to murder and rape, but the fact is he's just wrong."</p>

<p>You are totally misrepresenting his arguments, but I'll let you figure that out on your own time.</p>

<p>Fraud is a crime. There may be legal consequences, so don't say that it's not against the law. It may very well be. Plus, you still haven't given any reason NOT to report it anonymously. All you're saying is that the moral cesspool in which you go to school has warped your judgment.</p>

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<p>If it ends up that Yale learns that the reccs were forged, and Yale rescinds the student's admission, for all the student knows, this could have occurred because of something that Yale routinely does as part of admissions:</p>

<p>"[Yale Director of Undergrad Admissions Margit] Dahl said that her office sends out postcards to some of the writers of letters of recommendation to say thanks. "We hope people will respond if they never wrote any such letter," she said. "If there's a whiff of anything funny, we get right on the phone. We have conversations with a great many school guidance counselors."
Bogus</a> Candidates Sometimes Slip Through the College Admissions Screen - New York Times</p>

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<p>"I am suggesting his moral reasoning skills are underdeveloped, and I think yours are too considering the fact that you think that what is considered ethical and moral should be based on how popular of a position it is."</p>

<p>A suggestion that is completely unsupported, might I add. Again, you know nothing about my stances on anything other than this cheating that is happening right here, right now. It is ongoing so long as it is unreported. In what way are my ethics undeveloped? I follow them closely, and I expect good judgment from others. What I don't understand is why you are assuming that I adhere to a particular philosophy when you know absolutely nothing about me or my views at all.</p>

<p>"I think you are right in saying that you have lived a rather sheltered life. I think you would be surprised that most people would agree with myself and zzzboy on this one and think that the OP is reporting this student simply because he dislikes him."</p>

<p>I would suggest reading my posts. I never said that the OP isn't reporting this student simply because he dislikes him. I'm saying that fact shouldn't be a deterrent in reporting the kid who forged. And you yourself fall prone to the same problem that laxtaxi did: an argument to numbers that is completely unexplained, just sitting there as if we are supposed to draw some conclusion from it. You haven't even demonstrated in what way my allegedly sheltered life has negatively had an impact on my position. If we are really going to play at this game, I could say that your life in an area of moral decay and repugnant behavior has shaped your views. How is this any less justified than your statement?</p>

<p>"Most reasonable people would say let God and fate handle this one since little good will result from the OP reporting this now. It's not like some kid who was waitlisted will get this student's spot; it's too late for that."</p>

<p>Prove it. Oh wait, you can't. ;) Please think before you post. Little good? Justice results. Justice is good. He did something wrong, and he gets punished.</p>

<p>"I don't think you can make that claim since even you yourself have said you have lived a sheltered life."</p>

<p>I don't think you can dismiss that argument since you yourself have offered absolutely no support of that fact.</p>

<p>In addition, you have not demonstrated that having a sheltered life destroys one's moral compass.</p>

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<p>This issue is something a lot of us have all faced. Last two years I took Latin and did very very poorly (B first year, C second year) and there were a couple of reasons. Because it was such a small class, it was very easy to cheat by bringing in a little sheet with all the verb endings, declensions etc. And 30-40% of the test was purely reciting tables. </p>

<p>Now, everyone out of 12 kids except me and another student cheated. The other honest (in this situation) student doesn't particularly care about school so his ranking is like 100 odd out of 200 while I did/do. We both consistently bottomed out every test. And our teacher noticing everyone killed the grammar tables continued accelerating the pace of learning the grammar (in 2 years we did ALL the grammar stuff plus more) and I continued flunking it, eventually being pleased with scores of 70 percent while others were getting high 80s to 100s. </p>

<p>In fact in the final exam, I scored 74% and was very happy with that but every other boy except the other non-cheater cleared 90%. </p>

<p>At the time, I was blinded by a new found Christianity which practiced grace and forgiveness compounded with the high school hatred of snitches.I ended 11th out of 12 students at the end of the 2 year course but if we looked at average scores, I lagged behind by huge margins. And it did hurt but all my classmates in my other subjects took Latin (a nerd subject in Australia) and I was the only caring student who didn't cheat so I didn't have the guts to confess to the teacher. </p>

<p>I still am Christian but now I think it's right to tell the officials about such infringements. But call me a sucker or idealistic but I really hope he doesn't get kicked out. Like if I got kicked out of HYPSM for anything, I'd be shattered. </p>

<p>Also Baelor, you mentioned earlier (yes, I did read all 16 pages) that this wasn't an impulsive thing. But perhaps you're very calm, reassured or calculated but some people are neurotic and impulsive and I know how it possesses people particularly with a school like Yale where you have thousands of kids sacrificing everything years in advance and it can sweep you up. In fact some kids get encouraged (read pushed) for schools like Yale and it does get crazy. He certainly regrets it now for sure, I think. </p>

<p>You did the right thing, collegebound09 and I hope everything runs smoothly and no one gets hurt.</p>

<p>PS. I can't believe people do this though. I know Latin friends who freaked out the whole time because of being afraid of getting caught and I can't believe someone would be willing to entertain such a anxious spell between application and acceptance. And that's not including continual checks which are rumored to be instigated at a school like Yale...</p>