<p>u§ername HAHA you are officially amazing</p>
<p>
[quote]
"so little for anyone to gain from your reporting this"</p>
<p>...Why does that matter? Do you personally have to gain something in order for you to agree that any action is moral? No one lost anything either -except for those who spent way too much time trying to prove that their personal ethical views are correct - so why criticize the effort?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>All you guys can say is that. But you don't realize It's NOT all about me. No we don't have to gain ourselves, but at least SOMEONE should gain... otherwise why would you waste effort for absolutely nothing? If anyone gains, then it would make sense. But you wouldn't waste your time to do nothing would you? And in this case, it would actually hurt someone. So inside of being that hero you think you are, you are actually some snitch who gets pleasure in others' misfortunes.</p>
<p>"All you guys can say is that. But you don't realize It's NOT all about me. No we don't have to gain ourselves, but at least SOMEONE should gain... otherwise why would you waste effort for absolutely nothing? If anyone gains, then it would make sense. But you wouldn't waste your time to do nothing would you? And in this case, it would actually hurt someone. So inside of being that hero you think you are, you are actually some snitch who gets pleasure in others' misfortunes."</p>
<p>What I'm trying to say is that the fact that the OP's acquaintance may not have cheated after all, and that therefore there is no "gain" from the OP reporting him, does not mean that the action was totally useless. The original question the OP posed was given without the knowledge of whether or not the student actually cheated, and therefore being like, "ahaha I was so right because nothing came of the OP telling" is a pretty weak way to try to defeat the argument that reporting cheaters is the right thing to do. In other words, just because in the end no one gained, does not mean that there was no potential for gain.</p>
<p>Also, I don't think that "gain," is the most important thing. It's "lack of loss" that should be considered also, and many people stand to lose something in a situation like this one.</p>
<p>As multiple people have mentioned, others are affected by cheaters who get into good colleges, such as fellow applicants and the schools which are doling out financial aid. And even the cheaters themselves are affected by these actions, whether by "karma" or by the fact that if they fall into the habit of cheating when things get tough they could really screw themselves over and get expelled from college or worse. </p>
<p>I don't think anyone was implying that it's heroic to report a cheater. It is simply the right thing to do, like throwing your trash in a bin. </p>
<p>And the assumption that everyone who would have reported the student in this case simply "takes pleasure in others' misfortune" is frankly so ludicrous that it really needn't be addressed, but I'll clear it up for you. In my case, I'd hate to see horrible people walk all over (and cause misfortune) to those who do not cheat.</p>
<p>u§ername:</p>
<p>Glad to see someone else gets it. :)</p>
<p>Hanajima Arashi:</p>
<p>
[quote]
In my examples, I'm talking about how people get away with bullying or genocide because others refuse to gaf, not about the gaf-ness of the bully/despot.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>True dgaf believers always gaf about genocide and sometimes about bullying when it's over the top.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What I'm trying to say is that the fact that the OP's acquaintance may not have cheated after all, and that therefore there is no "gain" from the OP reporting him, does not mean that the action was totally useless. The original question the OP posed was given without the knowledge of whether or not the student actually cheated, and therefore being like, "ahaha I was so right because nothing came of the OP telling" is a pretty weak way to try to defeat the argument that reporting cheaters is the right thing to do. In other words, just because in the end no one gained, does not mean that there was no potential for gain.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No. If no one gains, there is no gain otherwise someone would have gained.</p>
<p>Anyway, the only gain that would justify snitching, in my opinion, is if another kid could take the student's spot, but it's too late for that. All of the other gains are either insignificant or immoral.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And the assumption that everyone who would have reported the student in this case simply "takes pleasure in others' misfortune" is frankly so ludicrous that it really needn't be addressed, but I'll clear it up for you. In my case, I'd hate to see horrible people walk all over (and cause misfortune) to those who do not cheat.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The OP said he "hates" the student he is reporting. Why would he feel the need to tell us all that when asking for advice as to what to do? </p>
<p>Yea... enough said here.</p>
<p>"Anyway, the only gain that would justify snitching, in my opinion, is if another kid could take the student's spot, but it's too late for that. All of the other gains are either insignificant or immoral."</p>
<p>Maybe it's my belief in an absolute "right" that should be preserved that permits me to dismiss benefit as a requirement for an action to be just. I think we've reached an impasse here.</p>
<p>"The OP said he "hates" the student he is reporting. Why would he feel the need to tell us all that when asking for advice as to what to do?"</p>
<p>It was a completely unnecessary statement, and I feel bad for the OP that he has that feelings towards anyone.</p>
<p>people get away with bullying because people DGAF?</p>
<p>are you kidding me? its not my god damn problem if youre getting bullied. there are appropriate people to report it to (teachers, counselors, etc.), NOT ME.</p>
<p>if i were being bullied, i wouldnt expect ANYONE to help me except the people i mentioned above.</p>
<p>that being said, theres a difference between bullying and straight mauling. i wouldnt intervene if someone is jacking your lunch money, but if youre getting pummeled (as in bloody, near death status) right next to me, then i gotta do something.</p>
<p>and i hate how people are considering what the effect of turning/not turning this guy in would alter his future. </p>
<p>it doesnt matter if he's going to be a murderer by not reporting it or a saint by turning him in, period.</p>
<p>dont try to use the argument that by turning him in now, it may save him from a desolate future. thats ********.</p>
<p>its comparable to saying someone cant read the qur'an because there is a POSSIBILITY that he/she might become a muslim extremist that turns against the US.</p>
<p>So in other words, collegebound2009, you made a complete ass out of yourself. It's what you get for jumping to conclusions and trying to act as a moral crusader when you should have let things go as they did. Dumbass.</p>
<p>"that being said, theres a difference between bullying and straight mauling. i wouldnt intervene if someone is jacking your lunch money, but if youre getting pummeled (as in bloody, near death status) right next to me, then i gotta do something."</p>
<p>O.o Wow, I definitely wouldn't want you as a friend. I'm sorry, but I think that our belief systems are so different that we are incompatible. Now I know why this entire discussion has been completely futile. We are just operating on such different planes that we are barely communicating.</p>
<p>Let me share a little anecdote:</p>
<p>I was on a family trip to Amsterdam. My grandmother wanted to see a church, but we had to go through the red-light district or take an enormously long route. We chose the shorter...more colorful option (to be honest, we didn't know where we were going, so it wasn't a fully conscious decision). As we were making our way through, a cab driver pulls up and gets out. The guy is clearly high. He comes over and confronts my father. He says that he scratched his taxi with the umbrella he was carrying. We were over ten feet away from the cab at all times. The cab had driven up to us, we hadn't walked past it. Both were getting agitated, and they were yelling. I'm positive it would have broken into violence before too long.</p>
<p>A complete stranger walks up and calmly tells the guy to lay off. He grunts, gets in his cab, and leaves. </p>
<p>Are you saying that you would never be that person? I don't want to be misrepresenting you.</p>
<p>"its comparable to saying someone cant read the qur'an because there is a POSSIBILITY that he/she might become a muslim extremist that turns against the US."</p>
<p>And you're blaming others for have terrible comparisons? lol</p>
<p>Anyway, there are more arguments than that. Thanks for dismissing one that was brought up once.</p>
<p>"So in other words, collegebound2009, you made a complete ass out of yourself."</p>
<p>No. The recs could still be forged, but thanks for letting us know you didn't read the thread at all and don't think about what you type. ;) Anyway, if he did it anonymously, he didn't. And if he wasn't anonymous, then let the teachers decide whether he made an ass out of himself. After all, their opinions are the only relevant ones in determining whether the OP embarrassed himself or not.</p>
<p>baelor, theres a difference between bullying and complete violence. i even mentioned above that i would do something if fists started flying for stupid reasons. the stranger obviously knew what was goin on and knew how to handle the situation, so he stepped in. i would do the same in his position (if i heard the whole argument and knew how to handle blazers).</p>
<p>and yea, i wouldnt want to be your friend either. though i enjoy having intelligent friends, i wouldnt enjoy having a nerd + moral crusader as a bud. i can already tell your social life is confined to a few friends because of the way you spoke in this thread.</p>
<p>Haha. That description was accurate my freshman year, but is terribly outdated. On both counts. I don't go out of the way for my alleged moral crusade. But you must concede that the situation basically fell right in the OP's lap. Although you may think he went too far, I wouldn't call his action an extremist war against the forces of evil.</p>
<p>Anyway, I honestly feel bad that you can't trust your friends to step in for you when you're getting bullied, then you really need new friends and experience the joy of having people take a small risk and lend a helping hand, even if it's something as trivial as getting your lunch money jacked. I say this as kindly as possible, because I think that you are missing out on friendships are as pure as they can possibly be.</p>
<p>By the way, I don't understand why you would step in: The guy was a simple bully. No violence had erupted. It was perhaps even less serious than getting a wedgie, for example. So you say that you would step in anyway? I'm confused.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I was on a family trip to Amsterdam. My grandmother wanted to see a church, but we had to go through the red-light district or take an enormously long route. We chose the shorter...more colorful option (to be honest, we didn't know where we were going, so it wasn't a fully conscious decision). As we were making our way through, a cab driver pulls up and gets out. The guy is clearly high. He comes over and confronts my father. He says that he scratched his taxi with the umbrella he was carrying. We were over ten feet away from the cab at all times. The cab had driven up to us, we hadn't walked past it. Both were getting agitated, and they were yelling. I'm positive it would have broken into violence before too long.</p>
<p>A complete stranger walks up and calmly tells the guy to lay off. He grunts, gets in his cab, and leaves. </p>
<p>Are you saying that you would never be that person? I don't want to be misrepresenting you.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How do you know the guy was high? If he was smoking weed, it doesn't really make much sense that he would get violent. Perhaps he was on something else though...</p>
<p>Anyway, yes, you are misrepresenting what he said. I can't speak for him and say that he would do what the Dutch guy did, but he clearly said in his post that he would gaf in certain situations.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And you're blaming others for have terrible comparisons? lol
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I thought it was a fair comparison.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No. The recs could still be forged, but thanks for letting us know you didn't read the thread at all and don't think about what you type. Anyway, if he did it anonymously, he didn't. And if he wasn't anonymous, then let the teachers decide whether he made an ass out of himself. After all, their opinions are the only relevant ones in determining whether the OP embarrassed himself or not.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know... It's not as likely anymore given what the OP recently said.</p>
<p>The last possibility is that the kid took the letters his teachers wrote, scanned them into his computer, used photo editing software to remove the text but keep the signature, write his own recommendation--which would take way too much effort--, and then add an image of the signature/etc.</p>
<p>Plausible, but why would anyone put that much effort into doing this? Can you imagine how hard it would be to write your own recommendation? Especially for a school like Yale where it's unlikely you'll get in anyway.</p>
<p>If this kid did all of that to get into Yale, wow...</p>
<p>see, thats the thing baelor. the most effective counter to bullying IS having friends. though ive never been bullied, its quite apparent that the kids who are bullied do not have many friends by their side. who in their right minds would try to bully a single person when he's surrounded by 10 kids?</p>
<p>what i was speaking about was in reference to strangers, not friends. i would jump in for my friends in a heartbeat. dont even start by saying some bs about how im not a good citizen or something.</p>
<p>maybe i misunderstood your situation. you explicitly said violence was about to erupt. its quite obvious when it is when curse words start flying and people start saying "ima ***** you up."</p>
<p>"How do you know the guy was high? If he was smoking weed, it doesn't really make much sense that he would get violent. Perhaps he was on something else though..."</p>
<p>What are the normal symptoms? They're not very hard to see. Anyway, that's hardly relevant to the point of the story, can we agree?</p>
<p>"Anyway, yes, you are misrepresenting what he said. I can't speak for him and say that he would do what the Dutch guy did, but he clearly said in his post that he would gaf in certain situations."</p>
<p>But he said he wouldn't get involved in simple bullying, which this was, correct? It was in no way more serious than getting lunch money stolen, for example.</p>
<p>"I thought it was a fair comparison."</p>
<p>Then there are two options:</p>
<p>1) You didn't understand the arguments that zzzboy was attempting to counter in the same way I did
2) We think radically differently</p>
<p>I suppose which option is correct is irrelevant.</p>
<p>"I don't know... It's not as likely anymore given what the OP recently said."</p>
<p>Then the OP can deal with the consequences, as can the teachers. But making predictions is of limited use, although entertaining. All I said was that the situation was still open-ended. Is there an easier way to forge recs and sidestep the bureaucratic mess than to refuse to waive your rights to see them?</p>
<p>"The last possibility is that the kid took the letters his teachers wrote, scanned them into his computer, used photo editing software to remove the text but keep the signature, write his own recommendation--which would take way too much effort--, and then add an image of the signature/etc."</p>
<p>If he sent the recs out himself, why would the signature even matter? Yale has no idea what the signatures of these teachers look like.</p>
<p>"Plausible, but why would anyone put that much effort into doing this? Can you imagine how hard it would be to write your own recommendation? Especially for a school like Yale where it's unlikely you'll get in anyway."</p>
<p>Read the above.</p>
<p>"see, thats the thing baelor. the most effective counter to bullying IS having friends. though ive never been bullied, its quite apparent that the kids who are bullied do not have many friends by their side. who in their right minds would try to bully a single person when he's surrounded by 10 kids?"</p>
<p>And you don't think that it is worth it to help the kid who doesn't have friends? I have been in that situation only once, and it was enough to convince me that putting a stop to all bullying I saw was going to be my policy. Why wouldn't you want to step in and give the kid a friend, if only for a moment? I'm actually sad as I'm writing this. I just couldn't imagine being a kid who is bullied due to lack of friends, and then not being offered any help...</p>
<p>"what i was speaking about was in reference to strangers, not friends. i would jump in for my friends in a heartbeat. dont even start by saying some bs about how im not a good citizen or something."</p>
<p>I would hardly call it BS, but I wasn't going to make the argument anyway.</p>
<p>See, I guess that's the difference between us: I don't have qualifications for whom I help. I don't just help my friends. Try helping a stranger in need. It's quite addictive.</p>
<p>"maybe i misunderstood your situation. you explicitly said violence was about to erupt. its quite obvious when it is when curse words start flying and people start saying "ima ***** you up."</p>
<p>We couldn't understand him totally, he was sputtering a hybrid of English and Dutch. But he started clenching his fists. Anyway, he wasn't actually physically threatening anyone, but it was clear that the situation was escalating.</p>
<p>youre making me out to be some kind of monster. you took my statements as black and white statements, when in reality, i dont even know myself when i would/wouldnt help someone.</p>
<p>thats the whole problem with this thread. some people are trying to define it in black and white while others are saying there are grey areas.</p>
<p>you and newjack already had an argument on this, though it was more about both of your personal beliefs rather than how the thread should be dealt with.</p>
<p>"youre making me out to be some kind of monster. you took my statements as black and white statements, when in reality, i dont even know myself when i would/wouldnt help someone."</p>
<p>No, I'm trying to find what your limit is. Other than asking if I misrepresented your first statement (after a possible misrepresentation), I think that I haven't really stretch your words unreasonably. Can you please point out where I did, so I can retract my statements and correct myself? I never called you a monster. You clearly have a very different value system. But I don't believe I've attacked you personally in the last page for it.</p>
<p>"thats the whole problem with this thread. some people are trying to define it in black and white while others are saying there are grey areas."</p>
<p>Interestingly, I also view it in gray areas. My thought process wasn't a black-and-white one, but the solution was very clear after my reasoning. I considered all the rights and commitment of the individuals, then ranked the rights and consequences. The right of Yale to have its contract followed and the rights of the teachers to know that they were being impersonated won out.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What are the normal symptoms? They're not very hard to see. Anyway, that's hardly relevant to the point of the story, can we agree?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I was just wondering because if he was smoking weed it doesn't make sense that he would get violent or angry. If your dad had actually scratched his taxi and the driver was dank, the driver probably would have been like, "I dgaf."</p>
<p>In my opinion, he was probably just crazy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But he said he wouldn't get involved in simple bullying, which this was, correct? It was in no way more serious than getting lunch money stolen, for example.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It didn't sound like simple bullying. You made it sound as if the driver was crazy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If he sent the recs out himself, why would the signature even matter? Yale has no idea what the signatures of these teachers look like.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>To make it look more legit. </p>
<p>Also, the OP never specified whether or not the kid just faked the letter or the entire recommendation--there's a survey part that's also supposed to be signed. So it's possible that the kid liked the survey part but didn't like the letter--or vice versa.</p>
<p>
[quote]
See, I guess that's the difference between us: I don't have qualifications for whom I help. I don't just help my friends. Try helping a stranger in need. It's quite addictive.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Come on...</p>
<p>Don't you think that sounds just a tad bit narcissistic?</p>
<p>"I was just wondering because if he was smoking weed it doesn't make sense that he would get violent or angry. If your dad had actually scratched his taxi and the driver was dank, the driver probably would have been like, "I dgaf.""</p>
<p>Okay, maybe it wasn't weed. His eyes were all weird and very red. His speech was garbled and slurred, but he wasn't drunk. Maybe he was just strange.</p>
<p>"It didn't sound like simple bullying. You made it sound as if the driver was crazy."</p>
<p>No, no. He really wasn't insane. Maybe he had had a really bad day and needed to take it out on someone, I don't know. But he wasn't crazy. He would have made for a very...interesting cab driver if he had been...</p>
<p>"To make it look more legit."</p>
<p>I'm not sure that I agree here. Signatures are so varied that it is impossible to categorize them as legit/not legit. I don't find it unlikely that someone would just fake one completely. </p>
<p>"Also, the OP never specified whether or not the kid just faked the letter or the entire recommendation--there's a survey part that's also supposed to be signed. So it's possible that the kid liked the survey part but didn't like the letter--or vice versa."</p>
<p>That is true. However, there is another option: The school doesn't submit the surveys. Mine doesn't. Each teacher writes a personalized letter for each student and sends them off to colleges (I do not know whether the CC does or the teacher does). I believe the students give them envelopes, but I'm not sure.</p>