How much admissions support does the Brown fencing coach offer recruits? Is there any hope for a D or E rated foil fencer, rising junior, to be recruited?
Female or male? I think he gets maybe 3 spots per gender. I know (because he told me when I met with him as an unranked senior foilist) he will mention any fencer who meets with him to admissions but I’m sure he makes it clear who the real recruits are. The team has improved a lot over the last decade so I don’t think a D or E is enough to get any real push from him but I could be wrong.
He was upfront with me that he was making no promises and that I was certainly welcome to try out (I did successfully walk on in 2005 and fenced all 4 years) so meet with him and ask. Has your kid gone to the Brown Fencing Camp )http://www.brown.edu/academics/pre-college/sportscamps/camps.php?sport=fencing)? It’s run by Atilio with other coaches brought in and most of the counselors are current team members.
He will definitely attend the fencing camp for the first time this August. He’s very motivated at the moment, having had a good experience at Summer Nationals, and he’s growing, finally, which is helping his fencing. His sister is a rising sophomore at Brown which has added to his enthusiasm. He believes he can get a C rating this year. We’ll see!
Atilio is one of the rare college coaches who actually cares about the student succeeding academically as well as athletically. We have seen several of my son’s friends suffer at other schools balancing the academics and fencing. That being said, he wants kids who have the grades and academic rigor to do well at Brown. Grades and EC are what your son should focus on in junior year. The other important criteria for Atilio is true interest in Brown. I would suggest that your son stay with one of the fencers in the Spring or early Fall, go to a class or two. He will be better able to articulate why he wants to go to Brown on his essay. The team and the school have been an amazing experience for my son, he couldn’t be happier.
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I’m also interested in the Brown camp, but my son’s club coach has said the college camps are not really worthwhile for recruitment. I think (if I am remembering correctly) @sherpa has advised the same. Our club coach told me the college coaches can often times be hands off at the summer camps. Is there reason to hope that the Brown camp is different?
Did Atilio and/or Alex recruit at Nationals in San Jose this past week? Does Brown, like the other schools, normally set up meetings at Summer Nationals?
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It’s been a long time since I was at fencing summer camps, but back in 04 I went to both the Brown and Penn ones and interacted with both Atilio and Micahnik respectively (as well as coaches from other schools who were at the camps). They may be relatively hands off but as someone at the best fencing club in NYC with no hopes of winning NACs, I can assure you that these coaches were not as hands off as my coaches were (who, I think if given the chance, would have had me kicked out of the club for “wasting their time” by being there but not being a world class fencer). I definitely still remember getting lessons from the various coaches at the camps as well as having them run drills, etc. The only other coach I really remember is the UNC coach because he was such a stereotypical southern guy and he was quite the change of pace from the other coaches (who were mostly european).
I mentioned the Brown one because (unlike the Penn one if I recall), there are many team members who work at the camp and you can meet them. Not necessarily going to help with getting you recruited but will give you a sense of what they are like, especially since, as a team member at Brown, I don’t recall ever meeting a recruit on a visit so the camp would be your best shot at meeting team members. The team members who worked the camps seemed to already be friends with the recruits when they arrived for the first practice.
As a non recruit, I was able to set up meetings with the coach at every (at least nearly) every campus I visited. I remember for a fact meeting with coaches at HYP and JHU (obviously I had already met with the coaches at Brown and Penn). JHU being the only school of course that didn’t flat out tell me “I’m not going to do anything for you” and even waived my application fee! As someone who had no success on the recruiting trail, having JHU mail me an application with a little note about how the fencing coach wanted me to apply and waived my fee was really cool. Even after that I still didn’t get in to hopkins.
Yes, Atilio was setting up meetings at Summer Nationals for rising seniors. My son is a rising junior so it’s too soon for an actual meeting. But they met and chatted briefly–he was gracious and encouraging.
@Arwarw–As for college camps, I wish there had been such a thing in my daughter’s sport at the schools she was interested in. She was recruited to Brown, her dream school. We made several (expensive) visits to Brown (as well as Penn, Cornell and Yale and others) so she could truly get a sense of what life would be like for her as an athlete and student although her official visit was when she really knew it was a fit. Actually living in a dorm for a week and strolling around campus is quite different from day trips or campus tours. That said, we know that being a summer camper will certainly not give our son a complete picture of Brown life. But what a great way to see the school and meet the coach and Brown team members-- all while fencing new people for a week, learning new skills and drills, and having a "camp-us experience! And next school year will be very intense for him academically, so visiting now is ideal.
@osasmom where else are you guys looking? We stopped by Stevens during the Steve Sobel Tournament and my son really like that coach. I’d also like my son to see Lafayette, Haverford, UNC and maybe Vassar and Hopkins. We may drive to UNC this summer, and we’ll likely visit Brown this fall. Maybe the others in the spring.
@iwannabe_Brown , as always, thanks for sharing your knowledge! It sounds like Brown fencing was a positive experience.
I don’t know anything about college fencing, but have modest experience with a few other intercollegiate sports. The opinion I have formed based on that experience is that college camps are excellent opportunities for potential recruits to advance their chances in front of any recruiter who is watching. So I am interested to know why some people say fencing…or just Brown fencing…is different. Nobody on the Brown fencing coaching staff even watches?
Of course, exposure is a two-way street. Both assets and liabilities are apt be exposed.
Anyway, I hope readers will take from my comments that college sports camps are some of the best athletic recruiting opportunities that exist. Doesn’t matter if coaches chat you up or not, as long as they see you. At the same time I hope we find out more from those who think or suggest that Brown fencing is different.
Yes, it was definitely a positive experience (and a boost when applying for MD/PhD programs). I really enjoyed being on the team and I enjoyed my teammates. I know that had I not ended up at Brown I would not have been able to fence competitively (and even then I was lucky that I was at Brown at the right time). My freshman year was the first year that multiple walk-ons with fencing experience tried out so it was the first year the team didn’t have a single novice, a couple years after that was the last time anyone - even with fencing experience - walked on to the men’s team at all. It’s really incredible how the program has improved over the last 10-15 years.
And to robert’s point about atilio and academic achievement, a couple years ago brown got the 2nd highest APR in the country (http://www.brownbears.com/general/NCAAAPR2013) and I’m pretty sure men’s and women’s fencing were 2/14 Brown teams with perfect APRs.
I’m actually sorry to hear that. That’s discouraging for us.
I think it may be timing thing. Elite fencers want to train at their own clubs with their own coaches to prepare for Summer Nationals and after Summer Nationals when many of the college camps are offered the college rosters have already been worked out at Summer Nationals.
Here’s @sherpa 's advice on the college camps: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/15579841/#Comment_15579841 Our son’s club coach (a former college coach) pretty much gave us the same advice.
Atillio gets 3 recruits per year…for both genders. Our timing was bad , as he has a very strong men’s epee team right now 
He did write a letter of support for my son, who had the test scores to get in, a 35 ACT, though his GPA was a little low @3.7 ish. DS is an “A” rated epee fencer and was not accepted or even wait listed.
DS was wait listed at CalTech (Carla Corbit worked hard for him!!) accepted at Stevens(wih merit) Lafayette, Brandeis (with merit) and Haverford. Haverford will be his new home next month. Atillio seemed surprised that DS ws not accepted as he had he stats and the coach’s support.
So can I assume that as with other sports at Brown, Atillio chooses three or more candidates for a pre-read in the summer of senior year, then invites them on an official visit in the fall of senior year if they make it through admissions, then gets verbal commitments from three to fill his spots–and he requests “likely letters” from admissions for them in October or so, with admissions decisions formerly made via early decision in December? So @Epeemom , did Atillio ask for admission support/likely letters for three fencers other than your son and then just put in a good word for your son? Or did your son not receive a likely letter despite Atillio’s request?
And @Epeemom, congrats on your son’s A rating and his new college journey.
Interesting. If the Brown fencing coach is holding a camp after elite players have already figured out where they are going to apply EA/ED, then it definitely would be a waste of time for rising seniors.
For rising juniors and younger students who are seeking exposure to college fencing coaches, and for prep athletes in other sports, my previous comments about college camps stand–camps provide valuable opportunities for exposure that you might not otherwise be able to get.
Yes, camps are money-makers for college programs. Gotta factor that in with a realistic evaluation of your skill level and make your own decision on whether to attend, I think
Know your rights with that “verbal commitment” thing. Ivy Manual says coaches may ask about the applicant’s level of commitment but may not ask the applicant to withdraw or refrain from making further applications or visiting other schools as a condition of the coach’s support. The so-called “verbal commitment” comes when the student-athlete applies EA/ED and those rules take over…or it could carry over to RD.
If you want a link to the Ivy Manual, please send a PM.
I’m a little late to the party but I’ll chime in. Atilio definitely has pull with admissions, but he’s limited to 3 recruits/year for both genders combined. For those of you who know fencing, the implications are clear. Three recruits per year equates to a perpetual roster of 12 fencers, which isn’t sufficient to field a full team. So, contrary to a post above, there are most certainly spots for walkons at Brown.
It will vary by weapon and year, but I would expect one would need to be “B” rated, at minimum, to be recruited.
As for camps, I believe they present very little value to an applicant hoping to catch a coach’s eye. My son assisted at the Princeton camp for a summer or two, and never encountered a valid prospect there, but plenty of unrealistic hopefuls. I doubt Brown’s camp is any different in that regard. More than anything else, coaches recruit based on national ranking and, to a lessor extent, rating.
Personally, I’m a fan of Brown and I like Atilio. A friend of my kids was captain there a couple years ago and was very happy, I would have been pleased if either of my kids had chosen Brown.
@osasmon - I don’t know what Atilio did with regards to Likely Letters for other fencers. He did not request a Likely Letter for my son.
We knew that Atilio wasn’t/isn’t an active recruiter so we initiated contact and sent him our son’s stats last summer. He didn’t reply. We reached out again in late August or early September and arranged a meeting, which was an unofficial visit.
At the meeting we again provided him with our son’s grades, test scores, etc. At this point DS was an “A” rated fencer and around the middle of the points list for Juniors. Atilio told us that he needed foil and saber fencers, and that ED applicants would receive the recruiting spots. He said he would send the file to admissions for a “pre-read” and let us know. (We never heard from him on that issue). We spoke again at the January NAC and he said he would support my son’s application.
DS did wind up applying ED, but as epee fencers weren’t on the coach’s list (of 3 spots) we left the September meeting knowing that DS would NOT be receiving a likely letter. DS would have been a “nice to have” fencer, but certainly not necessary for his program.
I spoke with Atilio recently and he told me that he did send a letter of support for my son’s application and wasn’t sure why he didn’t get in. My impression of Atilio is that he’s a thoroughly nice guy, but not an active recruiter and very bad at follow up and communication. I have friends who are closely involved with Brown fencing who share this opinion.
I know there’s currently at least one “walk on” fencer on the team, but he’s also an A. It really depends on what the team needs and what the competition is at the time of your fencer’s application. In terms of the camp, I don’t think there’s recruiting value in it.
edited to add: And, as always, Sherpa’s advice is spot on.
Sorry for the misinformation - probably due to kids thinking they were on that list of 3 but weren’t actually. Certainly no guy who joined my sophomore or senior year labeled himself a walk on like I, another kid from my year, and the one who walked on my junior year did. All 3 of us were U rated though and I don’t think the other 2 even met with Atilio while applying like I did.
Even though there are open spots each year, the 3 of us would almost certainly not make the cut anymore. My year I not only made the cut, but it was pretty much a guarantee by the end of the first practice that I was going to make the roster as the #4 for my weapon and I was pretty much just as good as the #3 for my weapon.