<p>Byerly,</p>
<p>Looking beyond your high register of vocabulary, I fail to recognize your point behind this diatribe. What is your intent and purpose? Why are you on Duke's forum using outdated articles to prove some mysterious point and then say that you arent making an "argument"? I apologize if I am missing something here, but I really dont see what you are trying to accomplish. Furthermore, how does any of this discussion/information help anyone today or in the future?</p>
<p>I skimmed this thread. But I think that it might not necessarily mean that it's the lacrosse scandal affecting admissions. As the saying goes, "correlation does not mean causation."</p>
<p>I mean, let's face it, students these days are becoming highly competitive at many colleges. A student that applies to Duke might also apply to Ivy League schools. And ever since we were young (unless your parents went to Duke as well) it has been reinforced that the best colleges or Ivy League (and I'm not saying that it's true....I mean afterall the Ivy League was just a league for football and they all pretty much suck at it now). But if a student with this set of mind does get into Duke, they would probably choose the Ivy League school.</p>
<p>And the Ivy League schools might be a better with financial aid too (and this is all speculation). Because they do have such a large and wealthy alumni group...and some of the Ivys schools also have that program where if your parents make below a certain amount of money, then tuition is free. I think that has been one of the main reasons that some Ivy schools continue to climb not only in applicants, but in yields, because teens are beginning to get the message from them that the school is accessible to anyone.</p>
<p>Sorry...I think I somehow lost point of what I wanted to say somewhere along the line.</p>
<p>I get your point, and obviously when looking at HYP (and SM for that matter), Duke will not fare any better in luring cross-admits from them than, say, GW will from Duke. But in terms of looking at actual peer schools, such as the non-HYP Ivies, Duke does perfectly fine, splitting cross-admits about 50-50. If that changed this year, I seriously doubt it's due to an overnight drop in relative prestige.</p>
<p>Its not really necessary to be so defensive. The lax thing happened. Can't do anything about it now.</p>
<p>Who knows what happened with the Lax thing? No one. lol</p>
<p>Duke splits students with Penn, Dartmouth, Columbia and Brown about 50/50, loses students to HYPSM about 20/80, and wins against Cornell, JHU, NU, and Gtown about 80/20...it was on some study or something done...</p>
<p>When people apply to the Ivy League, outside of HYP the others are pretty much viewed the same as Duke, and Stanford and Duke are two of the most academically similar colleges to the Ivy League as is, which is why there are many cross applicants.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The "hit" seems have been larger than acknowledged; the reason for it is generally acknowledged; there is no reason to believe that the harm will be other than transitory.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If you replace the word "acknowledged" with "expected", then actually, I can buy this. There is, of course, no proof that it's because of the LAX scandal, but I think it's as reasonable a hypothesis as any.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Its not really necessary to be so defensive. The lax thing happened. Can't do anything about it now.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not defensive, just extremely amused that someone like you would call me prejudiced. Pot, meet kettle. You're black.</p>
<p>I also have to wonder why you're so interested in a school that's supposedly so far beneath you in the "elite pecking order." Insecurity isn't exactly flattering. :p</p>
<p>I'm interested in all schools. Duke is particularly interesting at the moment in order to assess the impact of the lax incident, and to see how the school, its students and alums have reacted.</p>
<p>i am curious how Duke fares directly with Cornell Arts and Science kids and Cornell engineers.</p>
<p>The revealed preference report I read (link</a>) has Duke 4 spots below Cornell overall; p. 44 of that report shows that Cornell is ahead for the Sciences (which lumps in Engineering) and Duke is ahead for the Humanities.</p>
<p>I don't mean to be rude, but apparently our admissions office is doing a very poor job... because there's a lot of schools above us that we should be trumping easily.</p>
<p>Not really - the admissions office is supposed to get a great incoming class for us - they do. The other thing is that report does end up having to find some way to compare schools without necessarily having data to compare them directly. For example, the following from Dean Guttentag in Duke Magazine (link</a>) provides a different perspective from the table:
[quote]
According to matriculation data, Duke is successful in wooing to campus only about 15 percent of those admitted students who are also accepted to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, or Stanford. Against the next group--Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth, and Penn--Duke does better, enrolling about 50 percent. In recruiting battles against the third five--Georgetown, Chicago, Washington University, Northwestern, and Cornell--Duke is successful about 80 percent of the time.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, reading that other paper further - it is hopelessly inaccurate. There were no South Dakotans polled :)</p>
<p>Yeah, see, this I can understand. (Although I still feel like we should have Brown and Dartmouth on the rocks! :p)</p>
<p>This is particularly true with respect to the yield rate and cross-admit numbers, since Duke - like only Stanford among elites - offers substantial "merit" aid as an inducement to attend. 5% of Duke students are receiving "merit" aid averaging over $28,000 each. 80% of these students are getting "athletic scholarships" - an inducement not available to them as cross-admits at any Ivy, since the Ivies offer only "need-based" financial aid.</p>
<p>Although the "need" process is getting quite obviously silly, at least with respect to athletics, at many of the Ivies, as well. (This is according to rumors, anyway.)</p>
<p>Most schools have "skeletons in their closets". This one just happen to reach national front page attention.</p>
<p>For those already at Duke, I'm sure this isolated incident has not changed how they feel about Duke & the education there. It really shouldn't. However, for the HS admits, for some, on some level, this scandal might impact their decision. </p>
<p>In terms of the yield's effect on rankings, WHO CARES? There's too much obsession with rankings, thanks to US News & World Report.</p>
<p>Next year, the LaX incident will be old news & forgotten, & some other scandal will be the "flavor of the month"</p>
<p>Byerly - scholarship athletes at Duke are ones that usually do not apply to Ivies...scholarship football players pick Duke over larger state schools and top football programs, not top academic programs...whereas students that aren't on scholarship actually have to be smart and these are the ones also admitted to Ivies</p>
<p>From DukeNews and the school paper, it seems Duke doesn't dedicate many resources to athletic scholarships</p>
<p>This is what its like with Stanford as well, from how I understand it.</p>
<p>You need to do some research. There are some 330 "athletic scholarship" recipients at Duke, and about 400 at Stanford. The Ivies DO lose academically-qualified athletes to these schools, since they can be "outbid" for applicants not entitled to need-based aid.</p>
<p>As for "merit aid" to non-athletes, check THIS list. Cross admits with the Ivies are often offered substantial financial incentives to enroll at Duke.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Ivies DO lose academically-qualified athletes to these schools, since they can be "outbid" for applicants not entitled to need-based aid.
[/quote]
Is this speculation? I suspect that many of the athletes at Duke are much too good to consider playing at schools like Harvard. A top basketball player, for instance, is more likely to choose between Duke and Gonzaga or Duke and UNC than between Duke and an Ivy. Duke has a number of top-notch programs, which require top-notch athletes -- who choose based on athletics, not academics.</p>
<p>For the record, I think this actually proves a point contrary to the one you'd like to advance -- Duke's athletic recruits, many of whom would not have been admitted on the strength of their academics, actually bring down the school's statistics on the whole. Therefore, rather than fighting with Harvard for top students, we fight with "lesser" schools for top athletes.</p>
<p>There's a lot to be said for great college sports -- even if Harvard doesn't have 'em. ;)</p>
<p>Also, there aren't that many merit scholarships available -- some of the programs you list include only a couple of students per year.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Cross admits with the Ivies are often offered substantial financial incentives to enroll at Duke.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What about that list tells you those scholarships are aimed at cross-admits with the Ivies rather than, say, HYPSM? Most are aimed at NC residents and/or URMs. The ones that aren't are extremely competitive and go to the very top of the applicant pool.</p>
<p>Look, if you want to say that Duke needs to offer financial incentives for HYPSM cross-admits, fine. That's not news to me. But to suggest that Duke needs to dole out merit scholarships to lure people away from places like Dartmouth or Brown is absurd.</p>