<p>Well I don't doubt for a minute that the money offered to AB Duke scholars, Robertson scholars etc helps to keep some of them from roaming... do you?</p>
<p>A sizable fraction of the 400 or so cross admits Harvard loses every year go not to other Ivies but to schools that give them "merit" aid which Harvard can't.</p>
<p>Firstly, I am attending Duke on a scholarship. I was admitted to quite a few other schools, and I chose to attend Duke after I visited but before I was offered the scholarship. The money offered to ABs and Robertsons certainly helps, but it's not why these people choose to enroll at Duke.</p>
<p>Again, though, Duke offers very few merit scholarships, relative to the size of the incoming class. Most of the scholarships are also available only to a relatively small pool -- I'm not sure Harvard has as many students from the Carolinas as are eligible for the BN Duke scholarship, for instance. Also, it's worth noting that there is a financial component to the University Scholars program, so it's not unlikely that these students could attend Harvard for free (or close to it).</p>
<p>Also, Byerly, have you seen the light on athletic scholarships? ;)</p>
<p>As an aside - I really do love that HYPS are using a good part of their endowments to allow families making less than some threshold amount ($60k or $45k, depending) to send their kids to HYPS without expecting those families to contribute. I hope that Duke's current push to get some coin in the Financial Aid coffers allows the same thing some day.</p>
<p>Byerly...the students that Duke puts out athletic scholarships are great athletes but bring down stats like SAT scores and stuff...so athletic scholarships don't help Duke's competition for top academic students. Instead, the fact that Duke fields scholarship sports teams actually hurts its academic stats like SAT scores. Most of the smarter athletes who came to Duke instead of another elite school weren't scholarship ones (goduke.com I think mentions the swim team, xc team, and track team as ones that could use scholarships or more to get more athletes away from top sports programs).</p>
<p>There are about 45-50 merit scholarships every year at Duke, for a class of 1600-1700 or so, just to make sure you know, its not like every person who chooses Duke over a top HYPSM school did so for the free tuition. About half of these are meant for minorities and NC residents...the rest, i think, are for top community service people and just really smart people. Someone with more knowledge double check my stats...</p>
<p>Even minorities and NC residents sometimes venture outside the state to go to college!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well I don't doubt for a minute that the money offered to AB Duke scholars, Robertson scholars etc helps to keep some of them from roaming... do you?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Isn't that what I just said? :rolleyes: The thing is, you apparently fail to see a distinction between HYPSM and "the Ivies." Duke uses money to lure students away from the former, not the latter (barring HYP of course). The fact that it wins 50% of cross-admits from non-HYP Ivies shows that it doesn't need to use scholarships to lure students away from those.</p>
<p>Well I haven't seen ALL the stats - and I doubt you have either - but I tend to think that the AB Duke/Robertson money tends to attract SOME people who help the yield rate, from the lower Ivies and elsewhere, even if it loses others to - say - Harvard, who are in a position to pass up the $$$ carrot being dangled in front of their nose.</p>
<p>See, for example:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I tend to think that the AB Duke.Robertson money tends to attract SOME people who help the yield rate,
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'd like you to point me to anything I've stated to the contrary. Seriously. I don't know if you've got a reading comprehension problem or if you're just being thick on purpose.</p>
<p>EDIT: What, do I have to give you a fifteen minute window to finish editing your posts now? :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Due to its highly competitive nature, I highly doubt students who win the AB Duke will be choosing between only Duke and non-HYP Ivies.</p>
<p>Byerly, I think your point is obviously true and being conceded by most on this board, if you mean:</p>
<p>Our cross-admit numbers are boosted somewhat by the fact that we give out merit aid. Duh.</p>
<p>I guess what I'm saying, among other things, is that without the lure of the merit aid awards, Duke might have difficulty splitting admits with some of the lower Ivies - none of which offer such enducements. </p>
<p>Certainly they'd have trouble getting as many of those "top 300" applicants they have their eyes on.</p>
<p>After all, yield enhancement is the very <em>purpose</em> of "merit scholarships" - isn't it?</p>
<p>What I am not at all convinced of is the assertion by the "banana" guy, when he declares:</p>
<p>"The fact that [Duke] wins 50% of cross-admits from non-HYP Ivies shows that it doesn't need to use scholarships to lure students away from those."</p>
<p>
[quote]
I guess what I'm saying, among other things, is that without the lure of the merit aid awards, Duke might have difficulty splitting admits with some of the lower Ivies - none of which offer such enducements.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>:rolleyes: Yeah, all those athletes would be clamoring for the Ivies. I think you're grossly underestimating how difficult it is to win the academic merit scholarships, especially those not aimed at NC residents or URMs. </p>
<p>PS: Those "top 300" applicants? They get likely letters and a special tour of the campus. Not money.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"The fact that [Duke] wins 50% of cross-admits from non-HYP Ivies shows that it doesn't need to use scholarships to lure students away from those."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Go look up some numbers on how many academic scholarships are given out.</p>
<p>I certainly understand that Duke targets those AB Duke/Robertson scholarships pretty carefully, and that they hate to lose even ONE of them. See, for example:</p>
<hr>
<p>Q; what is this "special tour of the campus" cum "likely letter" deal for the "top 300 admits"?</p>
<p>Are you telling me that that (1) no ED admits are amoing the "top 300" and that no AB Duke/Robertson etc desgnees are among the "top 300"???</p>
<p>Yeah, about 3 percent of the class gets merit aid, with Duke having 25% of its student body with higher than 1550 SAT scores (same as Dartmouth, more than Brown, Cornell, other similar schools) I don't see that as being that significant. Also, some of these merit scholarships go to students accepted ED, meaning that they would be coming to Duke anyways. </p>
<p>Anyways, I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is. Duke has about 50 merit scholarships for top academic students and a bunch for athletes who weaken Duke's academic stats anyways (I don't know what Shelden William's SAT score was, but probably below the 1380 25 percentile score). Not sure where the argument is, but the impact of scholarships on yield might be significant, but isn't the main reason why Duke shares about 50 percent of admits with Dartmouth, Penn, and Brown and more than 75 percent with Cornell. It is probably a large reason why it wins about 25% with Harvard, Princeton, and Yale, instead of a lower percentage, but that would be it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
the impact of scholarships on yield might be significant, but isn't the main reason why Duke shares about 50 percent of admits with Dartmouth, Penn, and Brown and more than 75 percent with Cornell.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But didn't you know that there's no possible reason anyone would want to go to Duke over those without being bribed with money? :rolleyes: Apparently I missed that particular memo when deciding where to apply/attend.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Are you telling me that that (1) no ED admits are amoing the "top 300" and that no AB Duke/Robertson etc desgnees are among the "top 300"???
[/quote]
</p>
<ol>
<li><p>ED admits are locked into coming, so I don't see why they're relevant in a discussion about cross-admits.</p></li>
<li><p>See bluedevilmike's response for AB Dukes.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Can you cite a source for your cross-admit stats vis a vis the individual Ivies - or are you just going by the article I cited earlier - which didn't, I don't believe - break the numbers down by school.</p>
<p>In reply to "banana's" preceeding post ... sure, Duke is the first choice for a lot of kids; its a fine school.</p>
<p>But its yield numbers are not as high as you might expect, given its reputation, and the need to utilize so-called "merit aid" and athletic scholarships to prop up the yield rate is something that hopefully can be eliminated at some point.</p>
<p>"Merit aid" is, in effect, nothing more that tuition discounting or price-cutting yo attract customers who - presumably - would go elsewhere without the inducement.</p>
<p>It would probably be the top 300 of the RD pool, and any ABs or Robertsons in there would be offered a separate weekend instead.</p>
<p>And is it actually 300? It's the top 5% of the RD applicants... oh, actually, that might well be 300.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Can you cite a source for your cross-admit stats vis a vis the individual Ivies - or are you just going by the article I cited earlier - which didn't, I don't believe - break the numbers down by school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The 50% number is one I've heard long before you started your copy/paste spree. I don't know what the individual numbers are, but if you'd like to believe the number of Duke students offered a spot at a non-HYP Ivy is in the double-digits, then by all means, you're more than entitled to hold such a misguided notion. Just stop trying to pass it off as something minutely credible.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But its yield numbers are not as high as you might expect, given its reputation, and the need to utilize so-called "merit aid" and athletic scholarships to prop up the yield rate is something that hopefully can be eliminated at some point.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Um, the athletic scholarships are given out because Duke places a heavy emphasis on athletics. Shocking, I know, but I doubt it will be eliminated at any point in the future.</p>
<p>EDIT: And I still disagree about the merit aid, especially since you're focusing on AB Dukes/Robertsons. I can see some Robertsons as non-HYP Ivy material (maybe) but AB Dukes? Those are HYPSM-caliber, and of course I don't think I'd need to go into why Duke uses money to lure those.</p>
<p>However, the standards are lower for the NC/URM scholarships, so in that case, yes, it will help lure Dartmouth/Brown/etc cross-admits. But there are simply not enough of those scholarships to have as large an impact on those cross-admit numbers as you're implying.</p>
<p>I didn't say how "large" the impact was, but was merely suggesting that there <em>is</em> an impact, and that the people offered "merit aid" are, generally people a school wants, and who it fears might go elsewhere w/o the inducement.</p>
<p>To be sure, the loss of about 50 kids would only amount to about 1% on the yield rate, but if these 50 are among the top kids in the pool then the loss is more significant than would otherwise be the case.</p>
<p>This:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I guess what I'm saying, among other things, is that without the lure of the merit aid awards, Duke might have difficulty splitting admits with some of the lower Ivies
[/quote]
</p>
<p>is what I was referring to when I said "it's not as large an impact" as you seemed to imply. Should Duke eliminate merit scholarships, then yes, there might be a small impact on the Brown/Dartmouth/Penn/Columbia cross-admits, but I hardly think Duke will suddenly struggle to win them over.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To be sure, the loss of about 50 kids would only amount to about 1% on the yield rate, but if these 50 are among the top kids in the pool then the loss is more significant than would otherwise be the case.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I see what you mean, but I have to ask - do you really think none of the scholarship kids would choose Duke without merit aid? What's so different about their thought process as compared those that choose Duke over non-HYP Ivies without aid?</p>
<p>Well "thought process" can be hard to divine.</p>
<p>But for a new study of the factors considered by high-achieving HS graduates when deciding where to enroll, see:</p>
<p>"Lipman Hearnes Key Insights 2006: High-Achieving Seniors and the College Decision."</p>
<p>It is not online, but a pdf copy will be faxed to you if you contact
Elizabeth Drews, Director of Marketing, at <a href="mailto:edrew@lipmanhearne.com">edrew@lipmanhearne.com</a> or 312.356.8000.</p>
<p>Well worth reading.</p>