fighting the intellectual hegemony of the privileged in the admissions process

Applying to College
21

<p>As a child of an immigrant family that arrived in America making $20,000 a year, I can relate with the sentiments about the lack of economic diversity in top colleges. </p>

<p>With that being said, I think some of the presented arguments don't always hold up.

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The rich can hire therapists. People of my class cannot.

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The vast majority of rich students don't have therapists. This isn't really a factor that explains the different college admissions successes of two classes.

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I thought many of the colleges with intellectually attractive programs would be filled with kids who took charge of their own destiny. I did not expect them to be full of people who were there because their high culture and high society pushed them to do so

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The desire to advance one's social and economic standing is as strong as any that "high culture" and "high society" can instill. There's plenty of motivation for kids of any class.

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I agree with much of what the OP said. I see people getting into school's because they are wealthy. There are very few students from my school who are going to an Ivy who makes under 100k (I am one of them). They don't get in. It's not because they're not smart or brilliant, they just don't get in because they don't have the opportunities their richer peers do.

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Maybe I'm missing something about your school in particular. But I would imagine that if they go to the same school, all of the same clubs, classes, and activities are there for them. Being poor doesn't deny anyone access to these resources.

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And you know what, these are the kids who need to go to these schools filled with connections and what not. The other kids, their rich parents can provide them with other connections, jobs, etc. But the girl whose single mother is making ends meet as a seamstress, no matter how smart girl is, will never have the same connections as the guy who is a double legacy at Stanford.

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While there is no doubt that legacy status helps, top colleges also give preferences to first generation applicants and those from lower earning families. And you'd be mistaken in assuming that legacy even applies for the vast majority of applicants, rich or poor.

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While the rich kids scramble for things to inflate their resume, it does not occur to most of my poorer immigrant classmates (or their guidance counselors) that their struggles are something worthy of mentioning on their applications. Of course, no one tells them to aim past community college either

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First of all, I would not assume that people do activities just to inflate their resumes. I've never seen people do this in my experiences, and though I'm sure they exist, the rich would not have a monopoly on it. Secondly, I'm a bit confused on how guidance counselors can have knowledge of a student's economic status. Lastly, I find your statement about no one telling them to look past community college contradictory with your negative statements about those rich who "feared shame from their parents if they didn't get into at least one school in the top 25." It seems like you're saying aiming high and prestigious would be admirable for a poor kid and not for a rich kid.

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I'm tired of having most of my intellectual peers (in debate, chess, academics, etc.) come from families who have incomes of over a $100,000 a year. Whenever I meet them it seems that they always have facebook pictures of them enjoying an exorbitantly expensive vacation in some foreign country, enough for them to call it a "multicultural experience..."

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I hardly see how vacations can translate into college admissions success.

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All the people who receive recognition for their multiculturalism or multilingualism (usually as officer of some multicultural organisation) are the people who moved around the world as privileged children of rich expats. Prompt commendation from the school authorities. Of course, in their time overseas in their international schools rarely did they interact with the children in the mainstream education system of that country ... how multicultural! How cosmopolitan!

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You'd be surprised at how very few American rich kids go to international schools.</p>

<p>College admissions is perhaps the single event in one's life when there are advantages to being poor. First generation and lower income applicants get admissions preferences. Students from lower economic classes also pay less than their richer peers. Where else can someone pay 50k a year for the same product that another person gets for all but free? While it is a shame that demographics at some colleges don't reflect those of the general population, blaming prejudiced guidance counselors, biased admissions officers, and therapists just isn't right.</p>

22

<p>"All the people who receive recognition for their multiculturalism or multilingualism (usually as officer of some multicultural organisation) are the people who moved around the world as privileged children of rich expats. Prompt commendation from the school authorities. Of course, in their time overseas in their international schools rarely did they interact with the children in the mainstream education system of that country ... how multicultural! How cosmopolitan! "</p>

<p>You are vastly misinformed if you think ivies give credit for a summer trip to Europe...The children of professionals (doctor, lawyer, engineer) are not putting their kids in international schools. They are in public schools. You talk about people with 100K salaries as if these people are Donald Trump. The people who are loaded enough to have all these connections could probably buy their way into ivies as developmental admits with a million dollar donation. You have to have tens of millions of dollars for that. But that doesn't really apply to the children of professionals. </p>

<p>As for the rant about rich kids bragging on Facebook about their spoiled lifestyle, I don't see what this has to do with college admissions.</p>

23

<p>
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Secondly, I'm a bit confused on how guidance counselors can have knowledge of a student's economic status.

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</p>

<p>Not explicitly. Some of it has to deal the way they carry themselves, their appearance, and impressions of their ability. But gee, you tend to be more intimidated in a county different from your own.</p>

<p>I suffered some of this initial prejudice but got rid of it because I ensured the guidance office wouldn't screw me over in their choices. In my first year as a student totally clueless to the HS module system (and quite grateful to take any educational opportunity given to me), I did not know I had the right to demand more, nor did they ask me if they thought I could handle more. So I got way too many study hall periods in freshman year that could have been used for classes.</p>

<p>But they push those students who are well-known in the community. </p>

<p>
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You are vastly misinformed if you think ivies give credit for a summer trip to Europe

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</p>

<p>Well not directly. But of course these people end up writing about their "multicultural" experiences when they didn't even interact with peers of the "mainstream" class in the countries they visited!</p>

<p>
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As for the rant about rich kids bragging on Facebook about their spoiled lifestyle,

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</p>

<p>They don't brag. Not explicitly. Their privilege, along with the implication that they have no knowledge of hardship, simply effuses out of their profiles. </p>

<p>Hooligan: I don't see how this is pertinent to the topic. Actually if you'd like to know, I'm a left libertarian, a fact that has influenced my perceptions of privilege. Certainly however, the capitalist-communist dichotomy is meaningless to me. The culture of a society is far more important than what economic system a nation officially subscribes to.</p>

24

<p>I use to be pretty ticked off at these kids who can buy there way into the school through donation or legacy. But think about it like this, a school takes in 1 developmental admit who's father donated $2 million, and they can offer financial aid to 30 kids who otherwise would not be able to attend due to cost.</p>

<p>And honestly, a $100,000 income today isn't as much as it use to be. Well it is to me 'cause I'm poor, but I dont' think it's buying what you think it's buying.</p>

<p>And yeah, the number of prep school kids who 'magically' get accepted into ivies kinda suck. But those kids aren't $100,000 family kids. They're probably closer to $500,000 than $100,00. They're parents may not have donated a million bucks to the school but they're still getting in by attending feeder prep schools. Kinda sucks</p>

25

<p>Libertarianism is the philosophy which says that you can run your life better than the government can, and you have the right to be left alone in order to do it.
~ Anonymous</p>

<p>Electing even a few Libertarians to a governing board, is akin to having a designated driver in a roomful of drunks. ~ Doug Klippel, LP County Chair, Jacksonville, FL</p>

<p>This country is a one-party country. Half of it is called Republican and half is called Democrat. It doesn't make any difference. All the really good ideas belong to the Libertarians.
~ Hugh Downs</p>

<p>Republicans campaign like Libertarians and govern like Democrats. ~
Harry Browne</p>

<p>I posted the quotes to annoy you and mess up your thread. </p>

<p>My thoughts about your concerns:
It’s good to see that there are some people (like you) who understand that some students have less chance to get into universities because their CVs are not made of flowers. Yes their parents cannot afford to send them to the summer science camp, they can never afford to go to Africa and “save poor children”, they can’t pay for prep tests, they can’t pay for private counselors, they can’t and just can’t. However , I am wondering if you just wake up today and realize how unfair is the admission system? Actually the problem has nothing to do with colleges. It is something that you will find everywhere in the society. This is a world of inequality, you can still express your thoughts and your concerns but don’t be offended if some people disagree with you. We have been living in a hierarchical society and we accepted it that way.</p>

<p>Don’t be too upset because some parents give everything to their kids. Some of the parents that you are talking about, made a long way before they becoming rich. Every one reacts differently when they become successful. Some decide to give their kids everything they could not get when they were young. It is not that they are spoiling their little “brat”. They just do not want their children to go through what they went. Others decide to challenge their children ( like you would like to do). </p>

<p>My story is similar to yours. I sometimes feel frustrated when doors are closed to me because I do not have money. I get mad when I can go to a decent place to learn English, so I can improve my writing and speaking. Nevertheless, I would not spend my time preaching fairness and complaining about the bourgeois because all I can say is that they got what they worked for. I do not care about how they made or are making their billions, it’s theirs, not mine. When I become rich, the youngsters in my family will have everything they need. I won’t spoil them but I won’t let them go through the same tunnel as I did. Because I believe that they have been suffering enough and deserve a break.
You want equity, then come and live with me in Cuba. You will not feel frustrated because you are too poor to attend a good school. Welcome to reality dude. </p>

<p>“wealth = privilege”
Completely agree.</p>

26

<h2>"Don’t be too upset because some parents give everything to their kids. Some of the parents that you are talking about, made a long way before they becoming rich. Every one reacts differently when they become successful. Some decide to give their kids everything they could not get when they were young. It is not that they are spoiling their little “brat”. "</h2>

<p>So taking summer classes now means that you are a "brat"?</p>

27

<p>If you have read all the posts in the thread you would see that I was not the one who originally used the term "brat". Why would I quote my own word?</p>

<p>I don't know if taking summer courses means that you are a "brat" but from what I understand in the OP's posts, being able to do some special activities outside/at school is an advantage that a few people can enjoy. According to him, some of those people are well rounded for colleges and act like " brats". Go read the OP 's posts if you have time.</p>

<p>When I used "brat" I just refered to how the OP calls some rich kids and in my text , I am not talking only about people who take courses during summer , I am talking about children who get everything they want because their parents have the money to support them. The same children who caught the OP's attention.</p>

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<p>Umm, actually, because I go to an international school, I know for a fact that the richest kids at any international school will be from the country in which the international school is located. Most families of "diplomat" kids and oil kids, etc. have way under 100k annual income and the reason they may seem wealthy is because their government or company pays for houses, travel, etc. And by the way, you can never say that living abroad and attending international schools doesn't make you multicultural. I've lived abroad for 12 years and know this first hand. For example, I can speak 4 languages fluently (not just in terms grammar, vocab, and test taking skills like the AP requires, but in terms of speaking, listening, and thinking in these languages).</p>

<p>Its true that wealth does give certain people huge advantages in things like college admissions, but thats just a fact of life. Suck it up and cope. If you really wanted to attend prestigious universities, wealth should not be an issue. Its more about self-discipline than anything. Besides, colleges will never look down on low-income students who make the best out of their situations.</p>

29

<p>I do not believe that being moderately well off directly translates into admissions success. Nor do I believe that being poor directly translates into admissions failure.</p>

<p>I don't understand how money would equate an enormous advantage. How are wealthy children being offered greater opportunities? What kind of opportunities are they? Oh sure they can go on expensive vacations but really what does that have to do with college admissions? How many people actually write their college essays on vacations? As for model UN and other various clubs, what's stopping you from joining them? It's not like there's a requirement saying "You must make more than $200,000 to join this club."</p>

<p>The greatest difference I often see in lower and middle/upper classes is their regard of academic success. I come from a poor high school (only 75% graduation rate) and for most students, they simply did not care about school. Sure plenty of them had potential, but they didn't care. All they wanted to do was have fun and party. I worked hard and using the opportunities that everyone else had, got into a great school. EVERYONE had the same exact opportunities that I did but very few took advantage of it.</p>

<p>Don't go complaining about how life is so unfair and you're so jealous of your peers. I want a nice car, an iPod (yeah, I don't even have that), a $5,000 spring break vacation, a cabin in the mountains, and a yacht. Do I have them? No. Do some of my friends have them? Yes. You know what? Suck it up. Use what opportunities are available to you (which should be quite many seeing that you go to a wealthy school). Stop complaining about how life is so unfair and move on.</p>

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<p>fix typo:</p>

<p>before becoming rich</p>

31

<p>soo...the only kid I know that goes to a prep school goes to Exeter (if you don't know what that is, it is essentially one of the HYP of prep schools...Phillips Exeter Academy, Phillips Academy (also called Andover), and St. Pauls most would probably say are the 3 to beat, Exeter and Andover being the two main ones nobody will debate). Exeter is like 50k a year. He is in no way spoiled. He is also in no way rich. He is from South Korea, in a middle class family. Only way he is going is cause he got a 50k math scholarship because he is some math prodigy/superhero/genius.</p>

<p>Anyway, prep school kids arent all undeserving.</p>

32

<p>Ah, the first thread of a matter that I've been bothered by for a long time. At my school, which is supposedly one of the most intellectual schools in the nation, almost everyone is rich. I don't think I've met a single person here who's had wealth even comparable to my own ($30k/year). Even though we're supposedly an academic university, I see a hell of a lot of spoiled brats who shouldn't be here (who might have got in from SAT or essay tutors that their rich parents paid for). </p>

<p>It's also obnoxious to see other people going to countries all over the world when you can't afford to, even though you've won national awards for language skills (not to mention gaining fluency in a language in less than 4 years), whereas THEY couldn't speak the language to save their own life. You try to ignore it, but sooner or later, the resentment starts to build.</p>

<p>Also, it seems that the intellectual peak of my institution is on average less wealthy than the pseudo-intellectual dregs, which is rather fortunate.</p>

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<p>Home-schooled</a> Evanston teen accepted by Harvard, Yale, more -- -- chicagotribune.com</p>

<p>woohoo.</p>

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<p>Gotta love her last quote:</p>

<p>"I think I've had a pretty normal high school experience"</p>

<p>LOL?</p>

35

<p>Most of the elite schools can see through the students padding their resumes with expensive trips or "volunteering". It is far better to do something on your own in your community that involves your time not your money. Unless your parents are willing to donate millions, it doesn't make much difference in the admissions game. I know many students who took summer courses at the university that they wanted to attend and were denied admission when they applied.</p>

36

<p>OP, </p>

<p>Please correct me if I"m wrong, but looking at your posting history, I see that you are an international student receiving financial aid to attend UVA. Sorry, but I fail to see that you have a leg to stand on with your gripe-a-thon about the unfairness of the American college admissions process.</p>

37

<p>It does seem like CC represents more of the upper-class than lower-class</p>

38

<p>
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</p>

<p>Don't go complaining about how life is so unfair and you're so jealous of your peers. I want a nice car, an iPod (yeah, I don't even have that), a $5,000 spring break vacation, a cabin in the mountains, and a yacht. Do I have them? No. Do some of my friends have them? Yes. You know what? Suck it up. Use what opportunities are available to you (which should be quite many seeing that you go to a wealthy school). Stop complaining about how life is so unfair and move on.

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</p>

<p>You misunderstand me. I do not desire these things. For me, the pursuit of knowledge is the foremost goal in and of itself. </p>

<p>What I dislike is that many of my supposedly intellectual peers will not be my socioeconomic peers. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't understand how money would equate an enormous advantage. How are wealthy children being offered greater opportunities? What kind of opportunities are they? Oh sure they can go on expensive vacations but really what does that have to do with college admissions? How many people actually write their college essays on vacations? As for model UN and other various clubs, what's stopping you from joining them? It's not like there's a requirement saying "You must make more than $200,000 to join this club."

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</p>

<p>No -- it is not a direct prohibition. It is one of culture and the chilling effect, which can be just as segregating as outright prohibition. There isn't a requirement, but at the same time, there isn't a recruitment. The segregation becomes that of oil and water, because the cultures of different socioeconomic groups do not mix.</p>

39

<p>"I will definitely agree about prep schools though. The proportion of kids at prep schools that go off to top schools is rather unsettling. And it is even worse when a kid does not have his own ambitions and attends a school for reasons other than his own educational interests."</p>

<p>---I'm sorry, but this quote shows a pattern of thought that belies a misunderstanding of what "prep school kids" are actually like. I am sure that at every private school there are a FEW children whose parents and/or ancestral fortunes can buy them into secondary school/college. But for the most part, the elite boarding schools ALL have kids on financial aid upwards of 1/3-1/2 the student body. If 20 kids from Andover go to Harvard, most of them are not from a wealthy Boston suburb - they are from Malaysia, Kansas, France, or Michigan....they are white, black, Native American, Hispanic, Asian, Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, atheist...these boarding schools often represent many, many ethnicities and nationalities...more heterogenous than most public schools.
And most colleges are currently biased AGAINST children of privilege in the admissions process. Kids are told to not even mention international travel or hobbies such as sailing or polo on their applications because it will highlight their wealth in a vulgar way that would make admissions officers see them as "rich kids". If a suburban white female attending a private day school/good public school recieves a 2100 on her SATs and has a 3.9 GPA, that is considered merely "average" and will definitely not allow her to get into a NESCAC or Ivy League or top-10 public school. Conversely, if that girl were African-American she would practically be a shoo-in at many of these schools. I do not mean to sound racist or elitist because I am not, but the stresses and expectations endured by relatively wealthy children are often underestimated. These kids who strive for a perfect 4.0 GPA, great SATS, athletic accomplishment or artistic endeavors, volunteer or hold down a job, are often the same kids who get 4 hours of sleep and then are rejected from a top school because they're "all the same" according to admissions officers.</p>

40

<p>
[quote]
It's also obnoxious to see other people going to countries all over the world when you can't afford to, even though you've won national awards for language skills (not to mention gaining fluency in a language in less than 4 years), whereas THEY couldn't speak the language to save their own life. You try to ignore it, but sooner or later, the resentment starts to build.

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</p>

<p>YES.</p>

<p>They act like they're such an aficionado but they freak out when eventually the pain of their horrible grammar and pronunciation forces you to correct them?</p>