<p>We have been to visit Williams a few times. My older son ultimately felt Vassar was a better fit for him and he is very happy there. My younger son is interested in majoring in something math oriented (not sure what yet). However he really loves film studies. He does not want to go to a film school. He wants a small academically challenging liberal arts college. We were going to cross Williams off the list because there is not film studies department or even the ability to minor in it. Also my son is not a varsity athlete. He is more an intramural volleyball or pick up basketball game kind of guy. So of course the stereotype of William as the Jock school and Vassar as the artsy school are looming large. Any advice or experience with film classes would be greatly appreciated. Also looking fro some insider info on the Jewish population at Williams. When we visited over Passover we went into 2 dining halls neither of which had any Passover food in sight, sot hat was a bit off putting. We will also be visiting Amherst and Wesleyan. Thanks</p>
<p>Wesleyan’s College of Film and the Moving Image - which operates the same as a major - and Williams’ Art History Department are two of probably three nationally recognized academic departments in all of NESCAC (the third is Wesleyan’s Ethnomusicology sub-specialty.) Amherst students may take a variety of film offerings, thanks to the proximity of Smith, Holyoke and UMass. However, I think if this were purely a matter of academic interests, Wesleyan would win hands down. </p>
<p>Vassar is certainly less jock oriented than any of the Little Three schools. Williams, Wesleyan and Amherst have been competing with each other for well over a hundred years and were a sports conference even before the Ivy League was formed. In the spirit of full disclosure, I should point out that Wesleyan is a minor subject of this month’s Atlantic Monthly magazine cover story, “The Dark Side of Fraternities”. Towards the end of the piece, there is a cringe-worthy description of a rape scene taken from court papers filed in a civil suit by the accuser, a Wesleyan freshman at the time of the attack. I have several differences of opinion with the reporter who wrote the article, but, for the purposes of this thread I will grant that there is a significant athletic presence at all three.</p>
<p>That being said, I don’t think there’s any question that Wesleyan is the most arts oriented of the colleges mentioned so far - excluding Vassar. In fact, the very same article that lays out Wesleyan’s fraternity troubles offers this quip, made in an obviously snarky tone at the outset, but, which I take as a back-handed compliment:</p>
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<p>And, FWIW, Wesleyan probably has more Jewish students than Amherst and Williams combined.</p>
<p>I don’t completely understand your aside about Wesleyan, circuitrider. If you’re suggesting that jock culture is generally associated with rape, I disagree. On the contrary, it is particularly on this point where “jock culture” and “fraternity culture” differ greatly (though they may otherwise overlap at other schools). I think this is primarily why Williams is proud of its anti-Greek position. </p>
<p>The jock stereotype at Williams has some truth to it, of course, but the “culture” is not overbearing in the way you might expect. I think the Admissions Office may inadvertantly overemphasize jock culture here because the ra-ra school spirit they like to convey to potential applicants naturally revolves around sports. Plus the “dumb jock” type does not exist at Williams–this is something particularly unique to places like Williams and Amherst. </p>
<p>Anyway, back to the OP, there are professors in the Comp Lit and English Departments who offer classes in film studies. The studio art department also offers at least one film or videography class. They do not all appear in the course catalog each semester because they are usually not offered more than once a year. In my opinion, if his side interest in film studies is not satisfied by this, he’s looking at the wrong schools. You can’t really have it all here (math, film studies, small LAC)–Wesleyan is the closest he’ll get to fill these criteria.</p>
<p>The Jewish Association has its own kosher kitchen and dining room. Other student groups volunteer to help cook the food for their religious events. It’s such a nice communtiy of people and the meals are so great (and free) that I regularly go to the Shabbat dinners (and I’m an Irish-Catholic). These meals are always extremely well attended. </p>
<p>Thank you both for the insight. I did send some time with the Williams course catalog on line. Coincidentally they sent my son a very nice “book” today which might be a good sign 
I really did not like Weselyan when I went a few years ago with my other son, none of us did. Im not sure why exactly. Maybe we just didnt have a good tour guide. So we will take another look and also go up to Amherst. As I said, he likes film and wants the option available but he does want all that a liberal arts education has to offer. I also really liked Tufts the last time around so that is also a consideration but it might just be too big for him</p>
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<p>Absolutely not. Williams is an arts powerhouse: visual art, music, theater, dance, creative writing and art history are all widely supported – in and out of class – and well funded. Because of the strength of Williams’ math/science and social studies programs, its focus on the arts is sometimes overlooked, but in fact, it offers excellent academic and extracurricular opportunities in the arts. The trifecta of academics/sports/arts is pretty common among Williams students.</p>
<p>Specifically for film, maybe not. Although courses are offered in one department or other most every semester, it’s not a major or concentration the way it is at Wesleyan. When my son was there, Jim Shepard of the English department was the go-to person on film. Your son might write to him for guidance. </p>
<p>The number of varsity athletes at Wesleyan, Amherst and Williams is similar because they all field a similar number of men’s and women’s teams. In sheer numbers even Vassar is well represented by varsity athletes. But aside from team sports, Williams has an active, get-out-there-and-do-something ethic which extends to outdoorsy activities and personal fitness – and casual ad-hoc sports like “intramural volleyball or pick up basketball” or broom ball or sledding!</p>
<p>We’ve known many Jewish Williams students and haven’t heard complaints about the ability to observe as they’d like to.</p>
<p>I think the major point of differentiation is more general and more cultural. Although there’s a fair amount of overlap, Vassar, Wesleyan and Williams/Amherst attract a different kind of personality. Their locations and physical environments are also quite different. My opinion is that Williams offers the best combination of math and the arts, Wesleyan the best combination of math, arts and film. </p>
<p>My son liked Wesleyan a lot, but in the end chose Williams both for its commitment to visual art. art history and writing and for its rural and insular environment. It’s really all about fit and some trade-offs may be inevitable… </p>
<p>Now that I think of it, Amherst would be a great option. He could take film studies classes for credit at the other Five Colleges without sacrificing the rigor of a top LAC education. (I have a friend at UMass who has taken and enjoyed film classes. They are by no means on the same intellectual level of the Little Three, though. I think one of his final papers was a three-page assignment. ) I’m sure he could even audit classes for fun if he wants to. Not sure whether “film studies” will go on his diploma, though. </p>
<p>I am very familiar with two of the schools being discussed here, Williams and Weslyean, and also very familar with two of the departments being discussed, the Film department at Wesleyan and the Art department at Williams.</p>
<p>Seriously, if your son is really looking for film studies without the limitations of a narrowly professional undergraduate education and with the benefits of a liberal arts curriculum, i strongly suggest you withhold your earlier impressions and head back to Middletown. The film studies program there is astonishingly strong and will set your son up for a career in film, while giving him the broad education you say he would like. It honestly is that good and its alumni network is comparable to what the art history or the economics departments at Williams can offer their students.</p>
<p>Williams is good at so many things and such a great place for the right student, but an “arts powerhouse?”. This is a statement that few of the most proud alumni or faculty would make. The money has been invested and we have seen many improvements, but this is not a college with the arts at its soul, and I doubt this will change for a very long time. Art history is the strong exception, though the department by reputation has been traditional rather than progressive.</p>
<p>Best to you and your son as you weight the options at all of these very fine schools.</p>
<p>midlifedad, I stand by my statement. I grant that film is a non-event, but Williams’ standing in the combined impact of visual art, art history, music and theater is deep and wide. The statement that “his is not a college with the arts at its soul” is contradicted by the high percentage of Williams students who are committed to art, music and theater and who seek careers in related fields.</p>
<p>Along with differences in culture (which I feel are important to cede to) the OP’s son may also have to weigh his interest in math vs film. They may be equal or one may be predominate. My impression is that Williams’ math department is the strongest of the schools in question.</p>
<p>FoxboroPiper wrote:
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<p>Sadly, I think if the Janet Epifano story at Amherst illustrates anything it is that , intentionally or not, a college can develop a prevailing rape culture even without offically sanctioned male fraternities. It was the Atlantic Monthly article which I felt needed citing, in part because it was recently published, that drew the connection between sports and rape by specifically focusing on the three sports oriented fraternities in existence at Wesleyan. The fact (and this is one of my many peeves with the article) that those three fraternities play a relatively minor role in the social scene at Wesleyan was completely ignored. The two most popular fraternities - both of which are co-ed - have very little identification with sports at all and their primary missions seem to be the serving of delicious hot meals (Alpha Delt) and the sponsorship of weekly rock concerts (Eclectic.) Are there similar places at Williams?</p>
<p>Angie Epifano.</p>
<p>Now, Williams certainly can’t match Wesleyan for film studies. But I will note that for a college that is not a film school, Williams has produced a remarkable number of highly-successful directors: Eliza Kazan, John Frankenheimer, John Sayles, and Frederick Wiseman – not many schools can top that group. </p>
<p>But more broadly, to say that Williams is not an arts powerhouse is flat-out laughable. We are talking about the best undergraduate art history program, and easily the most prominent collection of art museum curator alums, in the country. The college benefits from three major museums in close proximity, all of which have close ties to the college: MassMoca, The Clark, and WCMA. No school can compare when you consider the combo of world-class museums that actually are closely tied to the college community and provide great opportunities for students. The campus itself is full of all sort of prominently-displayed public art installations. I also note that Williams recently started a unique (or at least unusual) program where students can borrow and keep in their dorm rooms art from the college collection. Also check out the studio art facility at Williams – I doubt any liberal arts college that is not an art school can top it. </p>
<p>In terms of theater, Williams has one of the top undergrad theater facilities in the country, with three distinct spectacular stages, as well as a gorgeous and well-used dance studio. The college has, as in art, a legacy of producing major theater talents – folks like Stephen Sondheim, A.R. Gurney, William Finn, Sebastian Arcelus, Leehom Wang, David Turner, and so forth. And the college benefits from its close relationship with one of the top summer theater festivals in the country, the Williamstown Theater Festival, which also provides some summer opportunities for students, typically. The Berkshires are known as an arts mecca, and the college certainly benefits from that reputation. </p>
<p>Williams also has a tremendous music program; of particular note is its relationship with the Berkshire Symphony, which allows the top musicians on campus to collaborate with professionals. Not to mention an enormous array of student music groups (I doubt any school has more singing groups on a per capita basis). The music facility is not on par with the other arts facilities on campus, in my view, and could use an upgrade. But the faculty is great – one just won a Grammy, in fact (Roomful of Teeth). </p>
<p>Overall, a huge percentage of Williams students participate in the arts in one way or another. When I think of what makes Williams distinct from other liberal arts college, in addition to the setting, I think is that the school manages to be at the very pinnacle of the liberal arts world in three distinct areas that aren’t commonly grouped together: math and science, athletics / outdoor activities, and the arts. In sum, I don’t really understand the basis for saying the school doesn’t have arts at its soul – probably the majority of students participate at some point in the arts at Williams (and almost everyone on campus has at some point attended student-produced theater or music events), there are a huge array of student art and music groups, the school is situated in one of the cradles of the arts in this country, and Williams continually produces alums who go on to become prominent in the arts. </p>
<p>One other note on Wesleyan – if jock culture is of concern to you, note that Wesleyan has been really emphasizing its football program, to the point where they have very quickly emerged as the top football powerhouse in NESCAC in just a few short years. That involves a very different focus in admissions that Wesleyan had in its past, or, for that matter, even Williams has in its present – Wesleyan has been giving massive recruiting concessions to build a football juggernaut in NESCAC, after hiring Williams’ coaching staff away to run the program. Wesleyan is still a very liberal, activist place, especially when compared to Williams, and whatever jock culture is emerging is still a minority of campus, but it does seem like the current administration is trying to change (much to the chagrin of many alums) Wesleyan’s reputation via new financial aid policies and increased emphasis on athletic recruiting. I wonder if a sort of split campus culture will eventually develop … nonetheless, I agree with others who have said that if you want to focus on film studies in a liberal arts environment, looking closely at Wesleyan is mandatory! </p>
<p>Williams does still have a jock culture of sorts, and certainly remains unbelievably successful in terms of the aggregate athletic program, but it isn’t a football/traditional jock-dominated culture – the vast majority of athletes on campus play sports like swimming, cross-country, track and field, tennis, crew, and so forth (those are also the most successful teams on campus), and it is kind of an outdoorsy sound mind in a sound body kind of vibe, you would never mistake these kids for stereotypical jocks. Now, there are of course exceptions, and it is still a sporty campus, but I find it interesting that Williams maintains this outdated reputation as a hard-core jock school which really is about 10-20 years outdated, while other NESCAC schools like Amherst, Trinity, Midd, and now even Wesleyan, have placed far more emphasis in recent years on recruiting athletes for the most prominent team sports, which require the greatest admissions concession, and are also the sports most associated with jock culture, like football, basketball, baseball, lacrosse, and ice hockey, none of which (other than men’s basketball) Williams is a particular stand-out in, at this point. </p>
<p>WOW! I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all of the interesting discussion and opinions. My younger son (unlike my older one who is a guitar player and wants to be a Senator) does not know exactly what we wants to do. He is not driven by any particular obsessive passion (besides the NY Knicks which is clearly not giving him the results he desires ). He is a charming and funny straight A and A+ student who seems to like Math better than the other subjects. A big factor for him in determining whether or not he likes a subject is the connection and has with and the respect he has for the teacher. He has participated in student government and Destination Imagination for the past 6 years and did do some acting when he was younger. He also played Lacrosse for a few years. But he is not interested in really participating in sports and does not have much interest in the arts beyond film and is not outdoorsy in cold weather places. So all of this has taken us in a direction of pursuing academically challenging, personal environments, a place where social life is not centered on sporting events necessarily, opportunities to find his passion with strong a Math department (maybe even Econ) the opportunity to take some film classes and with a faculty/student ratio that will give him the guidance needs to help shape his future ambitions. </p>
<p>We are still in the early stages. As I learned with my other son, even with great test scores, a stand out GPA, and IB Diploma and a ton of interesting EC with leadership roles, if the acceptance rate is below 20% it is still a crap shoot. Perhaps if we didnt live in Westchester, NY my boys would be more geographically interesting to admissions counselors. But thats life. My older son found a home at Vassar and I am sure when all is said and done, my younger son will find the right place (which he will no doubt hate on some days) for him</p>
<p>Thank you again! I love this forum</p>
<p>Ephman that’s an amazing group of directors. For so many to come from one school with a relatively small undergraduate population and just a few graduate students is even more remarkable.</p>
<p>Ephman wrote:
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<p>I’m not worried. As Momrath stated further upthread, all three colleges have the same number of sports teams. However, what she didn’t mention was that at ~3000 students Wesleyan has ample room for a vigorous sports presence before it begins to feel like a “jock” school. Also, Wesleyan has one of the best student-run blogs in the country. It is an incredibly lively and inclusive platform for student communication:
<a href=“http://wesleying.org/”>http://wesleying.org/</a>
I’ve often wondered why for all their purported solidarity, neither Amherst nor Williams have been able to pull off anything similar…</p>
<p>twoboys2, has your son looked at Pomona? Might get some geographic reverse engineering.</p>
<p>Momrath, I am sure Pomona would be wonderful. But he would rather be within a 5 hour drive of home. Selfishly, I am not arguing that point with him :)</p>
<p>I’m sure he’s considering Brown too. Certainly selective, but seems offer a lot that your son is looking for. In addition to Wesleyan, my son also liked Hamilton and Kenyon quite a bit. I’m not familiar with their math departments, but culturally they have overlaps with Williams.</p>
<p>Have you considered Brandeis? In addition to being a great university, it is home to the National Center for Jewish film. See this link: <a href=“http://www.jewishfilm.org/”>http://www.jewishfilm.org/</a></p>
<p>Also happens to have a major and minor in Film, Television, and Interactive media.</p>
<p>I am a Brandeis alum! We are looking at Brown, Tufts, Brandeis and Amherst over Spring break. We will do Wesleyan on its own one Friday when we can get the tour of the film stufi</p>
<p>In my earlier post, I listed “Eliza” Kazan as a prominent Eph director, I of course mean Elia! One more Eph to add to the list after last night, as Kristen Anderson-Lopez '94, along with her husband, won an Academy Award for best song for Frozen. Also won the “award” for most adorable speech … </p>