<p>rocknroll52…that top 7 you are talking about is probably the Center for Measuring University Performance’s ranking of The Top American Research Universities. It is a respected think tank that produces an annual quantitative report considering both undergrad and research factors ([2009’s</a> report is available here](<a href=“http://mup.asu.edu/research2009.pdf]2009’s”>http://mup.asu.edu/research2009.pdf)). In that report, Pitt is ranked (and has been in each of the past four years) among the top 7 of public research universities (along with UC-Berkley, UCLA, Illinois-UC, Michigan, UNC, and Wisconsin) and in the top 25 of all universities (public and private).</p>
<p>Specifically in health/bioscience/biomed research, Pitt is the fifth most funded university by the National Institute of Health, so that is a direct measure of a school’s research activity in that area. The top 5 are Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Penn, UCSF, and Pitt.</p>
<p>If you are looking for NYC or Chicago, Pittsburgh is not. However, it is a fantastic mid-sized city with a ton going on…more than most people expect. It has been named as the most livable city in America by several different methodologies in the past several years. </p>
<p>The thing about Pitt is that the school really tries to encourage students to take advantage of the city, like no other university that I’m familiar with. There is the [PittArts</a> program](<a href=“http://www.pittarts.pitt.edu/]PittArts”>http://www.pittarts.pitt.edu/) that provides cheap and discounted tickets for students to various events in the city. Many of the city’s museums are free to students, including the city’s major museums which are adjacent to the college. And to top it off, all public transportation in the city is free to students with their ID. </p>
<p>The party scene is there if you want it. It doesn’t dominate the culture of the university like it does at some schools. You can exist without it if you choose to do so, and not be a social pariah, but it is definitely there in the traditional college sense if you want it. The Greek scene, I believe, is about 10% of the student population. There are a lot of college students in Pittsburgh. Pitt itself is adjacent to Carnegie Mellon and Carlow University, and when I mean adjacent, I mean literally the campuses are intertwined with each other. Plus there is Chatahm, Duquesne, Robert Morris, Point Park…Pittsburgh has one of the large percentage populations of college students…I think only second to Boston. And it is a city, so if you are board with the campus party scene, there is the rest of the city’s party scene. </p>
<p>This link may help as far as a student guide to Pittsburgh (it’s more geared to grad students, but you get the point): [Cool</a> Pittsburgh - Come to Learn, Come to Live](<a href=“http://www.coolpgh.pitt.edu/]Cool”>http://www.coolpgh.pitt.edu/)</p>
<p>Pitt’s a good school but it’s hard to see any dimension on which it stands out above the other schools on your list. In fact, I think they’re all pretty comparable on pretty much any measure you can identify.</p>
<p>Given that, I’d go with either the city—and on that dimension, Minneapolis-St. Paul and New Orleans stand out; or cost, and on that dimension Ohio State and Minnesota have the edge. That $5-10K/year difference adds up to $20-$40K over the course of your undergraduate career, enough to make a difference once you get into med school which is REALLY expensive.</p>
<p>As far as the City of Pittsburgh, a lot of people don’t realize what a cool city it is. They still think of it as an old steel town. I’m from Philly and visited Pittsburgh last summer and was so impressed! The Pitt campus is in Oakland, a beautiful area adjacent to huge Shenley park. There are lots of small restaurants and stores. The area seems very safe (compared to West Philly which is home to UPenn and Drexel, and North Philly where Temple U is located). Across the river, the “South Side” is popular with Pitt students for nightlife. Another fun area is the Strip District a converted warehouse area with tons of little food shops. In a weekend we really only scratched the surface of Pittsburgh but it left me feeling there was a lot more to explore. People are friendly in a sort of mid-western way, it does not have an east coast feeling at all. Cost of living is reasonable. Check out the website for “visit pittsburgh” and you’ll get a feel for what the city offers.</p>
I agree with so much of the other things you said, but here I have to speak up for Tulane. I can promise you there is NO SCHOOL that is as tied to and associated with its city as Tulane and New Orleans. In so many ways I wouldn’t even know where to start.</p>
<p>Now having that out of the way, as I think I mentioned I lived in Pittsburgh for 10 years, and loved it. I think it is a great place with many interesting aspects, and Pitts location in Oakland is great for college students. Personally I don’t think the Pitt campus itself is a great one, but that is just my opinion. The area is relatively safe. Like any urban area, common sense has to be used but there are no major issues with crime in the area compared to similar areas in other cities.</p>
<p>I really never thought of it this way before, but can there be two more opposite cities than Pittsburgh and New Orleans? Not in a good vs. bad sense, but just in terms of the types of cities they are. Really different. Then again, what city is New Orleans not really different than, lol? San Fran is the only one I can think of that might compare somewhat.</p>
<p>^^^^^This probably doesn’t make a decision easier - “but I feel that I could be happy at any of those” - that’s a good problem to have. :)</p>
<p>See if you can visit the top contenders. Have you heard back from any professors yet? (I should note that this is finals week for a lot of schools and professors might be kind of busy getting all the final paperwork done for the end of semester grades.)</p>
<p>I was rereading this thread and saw that you were admitted to Tulane’s honors program but not Pitt’s. How is that even possible? What were your SAT scores? Did you send Pitt an essay or indicate that you were interested in honors? Just curious. Because reading the USNWR it puts Tulane in the “most selective” category while Pitt is only in the “more selective” category…so I’m just wondering how Tulane’s honors college could be less selective than Pitts? Or does Tulane offer a lot of students the opportunity to be in honors program? </p>
<p>That being said, if you are guaranteed honors program in Tulane that means you’ll benefit from small honors class sections and that could be a factor weighing in favor of Tulane.</p>
<p>Another factor, where is “home” for you as distance and ease of travel to NO vs. Pittsburgh may be something you should factor into the choice.</p>
That’s a pretty strong statement. Some examples of how that is so would be nice. I’ve never seen a school other than the ones in Pittsburgh that offer free public transportation and as many free admission/discount programs (not to the specific school’s own programs, but to the city’s) and I’ve experience several city schools, although admittedly not Tulane’s.</p>
As far as Pitt Honors being more selective, that is hard to know for sure since I can’t find any data on Tulane’s freshman honors admissions. Tulane doesn’t seem to post their CDS online either. The average SAT CR+M for Pitt Honors College was 1457 with ~720 incoming freshman (19% of its entire class) offered honors placement, so it doesn’t appear to be because Tulane has a larger honors program. </p>
<p>The comparative admissions data taken from Princeon Review for both schools are:
Pitt CR+M SAT: 1265, average GPA: 3.87
Tulane CR+M SAT: 1325, average GAP: 3.49
That’s a 60 point difference in average CR+M SAT scores, and a 0.38 difference in average GPA in the other direction, which doesn’t exact put the two schools in dramatically different student profile categories, especially since Pitt has almost three times as many undergraduates.</p>
<p>Anyway, Pitt’s Honors College is open membership after a student’s first semester, so if certain requirements and/or permissions are achieved, any student can take advantage of the honor college’s resources if they are so motivated.</p>
<p>Just as an aside, I live in San Fran, and I wouldn’t compare New Orleans to SF at all. I agree with the above though, that it really is its own thing.</p>
<p>The problem with quoting the GPA is that Tulane’s is UW (yes, I know that for a fact) and Pitt’s is weighted. It must be, unless you want to claim that Pitt has a higher average GPA than Princeton and other top 20 schools. This is a real problem with using GPA, many schools actually report an average over 4.0 even though the instructions specifically state that they should be reported on a 4.0 scale. Ah well, just one of those things. Pitt and Tulane are not terribly different academically. Tulane is a bit more selective, but I wouldn’t say it makes a huge difference. As far as their Honors Program, about 10% of incoming freshman are invited. There are not stats given for those selected, but I can tell you as a long time follower of Tulane (alum and now parent of an honors student) that the average is probably around 1480 SAT, give or take 5 points.</p>
<p>As far as the statement about the city and the schools, we may be talking about 2 different things. I am not talking about free museums and the like (although Tulane students do get into some free as well), I am talking about being involved at every level. Tulane was the first school in the country to require a service learning component to graduating, and one must do at least 60 hours in two different courses (one intro level and one upper level) to fulfill Tulane’s requirements. This was happening anyway, because post Katrina students were flocking to Tulane to help rebuild New Orleans. Architecture students are actually seeing their projects being built. Business students are helping locals get their businesses back on their feet. Social Work, environmental studies, you name it. Every department has a way to get involved, and Tulane has played a huge role in the complete revamping of the K-12 educational system there. Tulane is also the largest private employer in New Orleans.</p>
<p>I am not saying many other schools don’t have students that get involved in wonderful causes. But at Tulane, every student gets involved. On a relative basis, given the size of New Orleans and what is going on there, I feel very confident in my statement. Also, and I admit this is somewhat subjective, I can tell you having lived in both places, being at Tulane means being in New Orleans in a way that being at Pitt just doesn’t mean being immersed in Pittsburgh in the same way. It is hard to explain. But to be clear, I am not saying that being at Pitt doesn’t mean Pitt students don’t avail themselves of many wonderful opportunities that Pittsburgh offers. New Orleans is just more…unique.</p>
<p>avenlea - Given all that you have heard on here and your own (understandable) indecision, I really recommend continuing to communicate with profs and, even more, visiting the schools. You really need to see for yourself. Granted, a couple of days at each school can only give you the briefest of insights, but it is a lot better than the alternative of not seeing them at all. That is really the biggest favor you can do yourself right now.</p>
<p>you have to visit! none of this matters as much as how you feel at the school. book a flight, and get a cab or arrange for the school to provide transportation, and check these places out. i’m pretty sure they’ll all let you do an overnight in the dorms, as well. who cares if your family is moving?! you HAVE to do this or you’ll never know where you belong. and the converse is also true, once you go you’ll know for sure.</p>
<p>GOOD LUCK!</p>
<p>(for the record, i have applied to pitt AND tulane. they are very different but i can see myself at both. for me, it may come down to $.)</p>
<p>No one is trying to claim that. Princeton’s average GPA according to their CDS is 3.9. I’ve never seen a GPA reported on a CDS over 4.0 so I don’t know where that statement comes from. Perhaps you can link a CDS where that is so.</p>
<p>There are others, but this proves my point. I also forgot to mention that Tulane has not publicly updated that GPA figure for 3 or 4 years, because of the problems of comparing GPA among different high schools. If they were to do it again today it would be about 3.58 unweighted.</p>
<p>I was surprised by UCLA reporting over 4.0, as the other UCs do not report over 4.0s (at least Berkley, UCSD and UCSB). It doesn’t surprise me at all that Miami does. Shalala has made rankings a priority and the school has all but said they are gaming the rankings in literature they send out to alumni (e.g. begging donations for US News ratings bumps). It’s shameless really. However, after actually reading the Common Data Set definitions and instructions, it doesn’t actually instruct whether or not to use weighted or non-weighted GPAs, just a 4.0 scale. The CDS actually defines both weighted and unweighted GPA with no comment on a preferred use. It also doesn’t spell out a requirement for a 4.0 ceiling. The CDS should really get some sort of standardized system in place.</p>
<p>From what I understand about Pitt admissions, they weigh GPAs according to their own formula in an attempt to normalize student performance across high schools and curriculum. I don’t know how that translates into what is reported on their CDS, but a high GPA doesn’t isn’t unbelievable since, as mentioned above, their ranges are below the range of your Ivy comparison (their honors college SAT scores, btw, are right in the middle of the Ivy, which may fit a skewing of high scores) and their repeated statements that their top priority in admissions decisions is a student’s performance in, and quality of, their high school curriculum, followed secondarily by standardized test scores. Take that for what it is worth, but it does not mean that 4.0 is the top of their scale, nor does it mean that it isn’t. Nor does it mean GPA is a good comparison across institutions, as a 3.5 at high school A is not necessarily comparable to a 3.5 at high school B, or that weighting is the same across universities. In any case, this has veered into a punctilious discussion outside of the scope of the original point of this thread. I do find it interesting, so thanks for linking those reporting a gpa higher than 4.0.</p>
<p>Your welcome, although I don’t understand some of what you said. It seems obvious to me that saying GPA should be reported on a 4.0 scale means that the range is 0-4.0, and it takes a pretty liberal reading to then say that awarding extra points for honors and AP still means you are on a 4.0 scale. As far as Tulane and Princeton Review and all that, I actually talked to the people responsible for this at PR about a year ago because of these questions. They do nothing to correct the data that comes into them, and so schools that follow the rules and report on a strict 4.0 scale are actually at a disadvantage compared to those that don’t, because that silly selectivity scale they report uses GPA as reported by the institution. So they are using data in their calculations that is measured on a different scale. Worthless. Also Tulane stopped reporting average GPA to them as I mentioned before. That 3.49 has been the same for a few years now because that is the latest Tulane gave them. It is unweighted but not current. I follow Tulane closely, I know this for a fact. Tulane doesn’t do the CDS, it is not a governmental thing and is not required.</p>
<p>If you want to quibble about 3.88 vs. 3.87 vs. 3.86 that’s fine, but it seems ridiculous. There is no rational way that Pitt has an average GPA close to Princeton’s given the large difference in their selectivity and average SAT scores. Sure, in individual cases SAT scores and GPA have no relationship, but it has been shown in every study that in aggregate there is a strong correlation between GPA and test scores, which is also common sense.
Or the simpler explanation that Pitt is reporting the weighted GPA, which is far more likely.</p>
<p>BTW, UC and Miami are not the only ones. I also gave you Virginia, but there are others as well. So Shalala might be using shameless tactics as you say, I don’t know. But she isn’t the only one.</p>
<p>I understand you want to make Pitt look as good as possible, but you don’t need to strain to do it. Pitt is a great school, with some of the best medical research in the world, not just the country. There are also some wonderful professors and programs there. Is it the most selective school in the world? No, but it is very good with lots of really smart students. The stats just are what they are.</p>
<p>I should have also mentioned, as you were kind enough to point out in a previous post, that Tulane’s average SAT scores are higher than Pitt’s by a statistically significant margin. These, fortunately, are not subject to the same manipulation as GPA. It would be impossible on a practical basis that their average GPA measured using the same methods would be 0.38 lower. To argue that this is the case based on some honors program or merit awards would not only be ludicrous on its face, but Tulane also has some of the most generous merit aid in the country, especially for a private, and an honors program. It just defies common sense, especially since Tulane says that 62% (IIRC) of their latest class was in the top 10% of their high school class, and Pitt only claims 49%. This last is really the most solid evidence that Pitt is reporting weighted GPA. Having a 3.87 GPA with 49% in top 10% is impossible on a nonweighted basis. Princeton at 3.86 (for the year I am using) says 97% in the top 10%. Or for the next year you used, a 3.88 with 95% in the top 10%. Come on man, you cannot really believe with that kind of difference Pitt has an average GPA essentially equal to Princeton’s.</p>
<p>This is all fascinating but how do you explain that the OP was admitted to the honors program at Tulane but not at Pitt? This doesn’t make any sense to me! </p>
<p>A couple other things I wonder about Tulane. Does it publish its common data set, as I googled it and came up with nothing. I’m just wondering how it has managed to get itself rated “most selective” in Princeton review. I know they sent out a lot of invitations to apply for free, so are they just trying to decrease their acceptance rate by having more people apply? I know that my D received such an invitation. Just wondering if they are actively trying to make themselves look more selective for USNWR rankings than they actually are?</p>
<p>rocknroll - I don’t know how Pitt picks the people it invites to the program. Knowing the stats of the OP, I think Pitt made a mistake but that is just my opinion. Clearly they can invite who they want and Tulane can do the same.</p>
<p>Tulane, like some other schools, chooses not to do the CDS. Why not, I don’t know. Maybe because there are inconsistencies and therefore they feel it isn’t worth the trouble. But that is just speculation, I have no idea. They do provide basic stats to these publishers or at least they post them on the Tulane web site so they are available to anyone. As far as the most selective rating in PR, it probably has more to do with the fact that they do have a very high average SAT (if you ranked national universities on that alone Tulane would be about #29) and that they do have a fairly high percentage that graduate in the top 10% of their class. It is not to look more selective for USNWR rankings, % admitted is only 1% of the ranking. Tulane markets heavily because it works for them, just like it works for Chicago and WUSTL. Tulane had the extra motivation of having to recover from Katrina. Perhaps you are not aware of just how tenuous things seemed in the immediate aftermath of that disaster. While things have actually turned out amazingly and Tulane is stronger than pre-Katrina, part of the reason for that is exactly these kinds of actions. Tulane’s strategy is rather simple yet brilliant (IMO) and I have written on it elsewhere.</p>
<p>As was said, we are getting far off topic. I simply wanted to keep the facts straight when it comes to certain things such as comparing GPA’s. Wgmcp’s post #30, where he made it seem like Tulane had the higher SAT scores but Pitt the higher GPA was simply wrong because the GPA’s are on 2 different scales. I think I have proven that beyond doubt. It would require willful ignorance to keep arguing otherwise at this point.</p>