Financial Aid and Early Decision

Colleges and Universities A-Z Barnard College
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People who have true financial need cannot afford to have a “dream school” – that is definitely a luxury that is reserved for people with a lot of discretionary income. At least not unless they happen to be guaranteed a certain amount of aid at the “dream” school – which would not be the case with Barnard, but could be the case with some other schools based on very clear cut financial aid policies. </p>

<p>You either have to consider finances with the college choice, or you don’t. If finances play a part in college decision, then the idea of a “dream” school is counter-productive. You have to be looking for an affordable college. </p>

<p>To Vossron, I have one question – did YOU borrow money to put your kids through college? I am not asking whether your kids took loans, I am just wondering whether you were willing to take on added debt under your own name.</p>

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<p>“With ED, you get an “estimate”, not an offer.”</p>

<p>Fine, but it’s treated as an offer. It would be useful to know if there has ever been a case at Barnard of an ED FA offer being accepted but later attendance not being possible solely due to a decrease in actual aid/increase in income). An applicant could call the FA office and ask; I asked at D1’s LAC and the answer was no.</p>

<p>“People who have true financial need cannot afford to have a “dream school””</p>

<p>So those who had true financial need and received an acceptable ED offer from their dream school, and attended, could not afford it? We still could use reports from someone with actual Barnard ED FA experience.</p>

<p>“did YOU borrow money to put your kids through college?”</p>

<p>We did, via the HELOC route (he said, expecting the ED relevance to be revealed :wink: ). It’s a common way to pay some of the EFC. (I’m now expecting a “gotcha” but I don’t see what’s coming. Naive. :slight_smile: )</p>

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<p>CC is full of reports every spring from students who run into problems because of changes in their ED award. </p>

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It would be irrelevant actually. </p>

<p>As I’ve said, the financial aid policies are formulaic. If something happens that changes the numbers, they’ve got very little flexibility. The only truthful thing they could tell a student would be that they would have to adhere to their policies, and if the numbers changed, aid would be adjusted accordingly. </p>

<p>As to the borrowing question: if you had a home equity line of credit, then you had a significant asset that gave you additional flexibility. It meant that if the financial aid came up short, you would just write a bigger check. Your monthly payment on your HELOC would only go up slightly in relation to the extra money you took out. $10K more than you had expected? Not a big deal.</p>

<p>But we don’t know if the OP has any such asset. Do her parents have home equity? Do they have good credit? Are they willing to borrow? </p>

<p>I think you represent a class of people who don’t really “need” aid in the same sense as families who don’t have some extra source of funds to fall back on. Basically your HELOC was your Plan B. </p>

<p>When I am talking about relying on financial aid, I’m thinking of families who don’t have that flexibility.</p>

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<p>“It would be irrelevant actually.”</p>

<p>You mean if your theoretical concerns had never ever produced a single case that you fear (as it has not at our D1’s school), it would be irrelevant?</p>

<p>What do you think about Dean Fondiller’s statement that a student’s financial situation should not keep her from applying ED? Should students ignore Barnard’s own advice in this matter, and instead follow yours? (And do ignore my advice, except where it aligns with Barnard’s; I also have no Barnard ED financial aid experience, but Barnard was D1’s second-favorite school!)</p>

<p>collegerock, I hope this has been at least somewhat interesting for you! :)</p>

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<p>Yes, it certainly has been interesting. Thanks for the varied opinions – they basically confirm my hopes, fears, etc.</p>

<p>One worry of mine is getting into Barnard if I apply RD (my quick stats: 3.88 unweighted GPA, 2200 SAT, editor-in-chief of school publication, founding president of a community service-type club at my school). I know the ED admit rate is somewhat significantly higher than RD (45% compared to 30%), and I don’t want to apply RD and then not get in. Any idea about my chances?</p>

<p>After reading all of this, though, I think I’m going to contact Barnard’s FA office to get their advice on the matter. However, I am leaning toward RD now because I don’t want to be stuck in a sticky financial situation come December. My worry is that my parents – who are divorced and both remarried – earn too much to be able to qualify for FA (or at least as much as they would need). Despite the fact that I come from a wealthy city, my parents have virtually no means of paying for college other than their income (i.e., no college fund, etc.), and they’re already in debt.</p>

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<p>You don’t know what happened in the past at your d’s school. You know that some employee told you, orally, something you wanted to hear. You have no actual documentation and there is no reason in particular that a college financial aid would track or record that particular information – so no particular reason that a staff member who answered your question would be able to give you accurate information. </p>

<p>But in any case, what has happened in the past is irrelevant to what might happen to a current and future applicant. The economy wasn’t as bad in the past as it is now. Credit was easier to come by in the past. </p>

<p>I do know for a fact that there are a significant number of Barnard students who come from wealthy families – 60% of incoming students are full pay with a COA in excess of $56K a year. On average, students who do receive financial aid are responsible for $23K of costs after their grant is subtracted out, as much or more as full cost at most public institutions. Of course, averages aren’t everything – for every student who has a 0 EFC and gets a near full ride at Barnard, there is probably some financial-aid getting student at the other end of the spectrum who’s parents are paying over $45K a year. It’s also noteworthy that 25% of Barnard students who apply for financial aid are determined not to have need and are not offered any financial aid. </p>

<p>So if you assume that most truly needy students are smart enough to use the RD process for their own benefit, then its fairly safe to assume that a much smaller percentage of ED students are even applying for aid. So you’re looking at a fairly small pool of students as it is, if you ask about past financial aid practices. </p>

<p>But your basic logic is akin to saying something like, “there’s never been an accident on this road before, and people often exceed the speed limit, so it’s safe for me to speed.” If you wanted to take risks, fine - but you shouldn’t be advising others to do it. </p>

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ED is a system that benefits colleges by locking in students early and protects their yield. Barnard has had falling numbers of applicants over the past several years, and a rising admit rate, so Dean Fondiller has an interest in pushing ED. </p>

<p>But the reported statement wasn’t relevant to my point in any case. She is reported to have said, “don’t worry, if you can’t pay, you won’t be bound” – NOT, “don’t worry, if you can’t pay, we’ll kick in extra to make it work” – which is what you seem to think would happen. She’s telling students they can walk away – but not looking at what they might be giving up in the process of walking way. (She doesn’t care – Barnard has huge waitlists every year, so plenty of students to fill the spots of the ones that do walk away.)</p>

<p>I have no doubt whatsoever that if the OP is admitted, accepts a spot, and then finds out in May or June or July or whenever ED students get their final award that its come up short and she can’t afford to attend, Barnard will graciously let her go. I just think that she will be SOL at that time, and it would be much better for her to apply to an array of good schools, including colleges which offer merit money, and then make her decision in the spring. </p>

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<p>Obviously, anyone with any intelligent at all should disregard “advice” from someone who has a direct conflict of interest. (I’m glad I never had you for a client back when I was practicing law. It was always people who followed that sort of “advice” who ended up needing my services.) </p>

<p>I would hope that prospective Barnard students would be smart enough to see through the hype and not accept “advice” from people who are clearly trying to sell them something. College admissions is a business; admissions officers get their advice from top marketing firms; and the idea of needing to hurry to reserve a spot is a pretty common marketing tactic. </p>

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<p>Well, who knows – maybe if your daughter hadn’t applied ED to her first choice, then perhaps she would have gotten into Barnard with a stronger financial aid package, and you wouldn’t have had to borrow as much.</p>

<p>Or maybe not. You’ll never know. </p>

<p>Here’s what I know: my daughter graduated into a recession and many of her classmates are unemployed or underemployed. She’s got a job with good benefits, but it pays less than she thought she would be getting as a college grad – even though it is good for the current market. I don’t think its wise for any student who will need financial assistance to attend college to give up the ability to compare awards, because there are very long term consequences to accumulating too much debt.</p>

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<p>“I would hope that prospective Barnard students would be smart enough to see through the hype and not accept “advice” from people who are clearly trying to sell them something. College admissions is a business; admissions officers get their advice from top marketing firms; and the idea of needing to hurry to reserve a spot is a pretty common marketing tactic.”</p>

<p>Not in the case of ED needing financial aid, where schools are trying hard to attract top students (“stats” for the cynical among us) that will result in a financial “loss” for them. (It’s a different story for full list price payers, the other group ED is trying to attract.)</p>

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<p>Perhaps we can get to a concise result:</p>

<p>No matter how many successful ED FA outcomes there have been (and assuming that the reason for applying ED is to give whatever slight boost there might be at the dream school), and even if there have been no cases of attendance being prevented due to a decrease in final aid from the initial estimate, do you feel that someone who needs financial aid should NOT apply ED?</p>

<p>(Please pardon if the answer is obviously yes; let’s just get the answer on the record once and for all, then we can drop it.)</p>

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<p>I’ve made my point very clear. If the OP wants to post more about her financial situation or send me a PM, I’d be glad to give her details about how Barnard might handle it. </p>

<p>To the OP: it can sometimes be a bear to deal with the Barnard financial office. They can be helpful at times, but they can also be extremely inflexible and rule-oriented. Barnard is a place for women who want to be empowered, and you are empowered in a marketplace when you ensure that you have good information and an array of choices. ED is a process that asks you to give up the information and give up the choices, as well as to give up your right to wait until May 1 to make a decision, and you get nothing in return except earlier notification as to whether you have been accepted, and a theoretical 60% improved chance of admission over what you would have if you applied RD. (And that improved chance really ignores the fact that ED provides a college with an opportunity to lock in fee-paying students, athletic recruits and the like.)</p>

<p>So if you are a smart, Barnard type – AND if financial aid is important to you, then you will have the common sense to hold off, and set yourself up to be in a winning position in April. </p>

<p>You don’t want to set yourself up where you have 2 weeks in December to try to figure out how your family is going to come up with $10K more than you thought you had, when you don’t have a clue as to whether you might be offered more by another college or what other colleges might accept you. In April, the picture might look very different.</p>

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<p>“a theoretical 60% improved chance of admission”</p>

<p>I agree that 60% doesn’t tell the whole story, but this is the main reason, a huge reason students apply ED to their one dream school, to try to increase their chance of admittance (Barnard does consider an applicant’s level of interest, and ED is a prime way of showing it).</p>

<p>I agree that if you want that array of choices, especially financial aid offers, ED is not appropriate.</p>

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<p>It may be that students opt to apply ED because they have bought into the hype and think it will increase their chances of admissions, but there is no benefit for a college to tie up spaces in their class with borderline applicants, thereby facing the prospect of turning down stronger apps later on. They use ED to cherry pick the top candidates and lock them in, not do any favors for the weaker ones. So the “chances” thing is just people who have just bought into a marketing gimmick.</p>

<p>As to demonstrated interest, Barnard says “level of interest” is considered but it is not an “important” or a “very important” factor – rather, they rank it along with things like work experience or geographic residence. Pretty far down the scale of importance. In any case, there are many ways to demonstrate interest – all colleges track contacts, and the “why Barnard” part of the application is a place where a student can indicate that a a particular college is one of their top choices. (Financial aid applicants should avoid saying that a college is their first choice, however – I don’t know about Barnard per se, but colleges that employ enrollment managers or leverage their aid will end up offering reduced financial aid to students who seem strongly motivated to attend – so it’s not wise for a student who needs aid to seem all that eager. )</p>

<p>In any case, my point is that ED puts the financial aid applicant at a serious disadvantage. Being blinded by emotions over the idea of a “dream” school is no excuse for making dumb decisions.</p>

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I should think this would not be the case for Barnard as well as any other colleges who are “need blind” in their admissions. Supposedly, admissions and financial aid are completely separate…one does not affect the other. </p>

<p>Personally, I have always wondered about this. But since they state they are a “need blind” school, I should think this would be pretty closely monitored. </p>

<p>You make great points, though, Calmom. ED would certainly seem at best to be a way to ease the very real stress that students feel in the admissions process. And only for those students who can afford to pretty much pay in full or whose parents will do whatever to make it happen. </p>

<p>I will say that my d repeatedly wished during those months between December and the end of March her Senior year that she had applied ED to Barnard. It was a pretty stressful time. So it’s not a bad payoff (the lifting of the stress) if you can afford it.</p>

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I think you misunderstand the concept of “need blind” – it is very common practice for college ad coms to send some sort of ranking or priority indication to the financial aid department, and request preferential packaging for some candidates.</p>

<p>I do NOT think that Barnard does that. As I’ve said, Barnard seems to be very rule-bound in their financial aid approach. They’ve got their policies and they stick to them. </p>

<p>But it is more common than not for colleges to leverage aid, and give favorable packaging to candidates they really like, and sometimes do what is called an “admit-deny” by deliberately gapping candidates who they really don’t want to subsidize. </p>

<p>“Need blind” does NOT mean the same as promising to meet 100% need. This is a very common misunderstanding of the term, but I really don’t know where it comes from. “Need blind” merely means that the college claims that it does not consider need as a factor in admissions – it does not mean that the admissions committee is unaware of the candidate’s status, nor that the admissions committee and financial aid department are separated by some sort of chinese wall.
t
MOST colleges leverage their aid and give preferential packaging to some candidates, usually with an eye to maximizing enrollment while minimizing cost. </p>

<p>However, again, I don’t think Barnard engages in that practice. But there’s a downside to that as well as an upside. The upside is that there’s no need to consider aid negotiation issues in the application process. The downside is that some women who have very impressive credentials are going to find they get weaker offers from Barnard than from some peer institutions (for example, Smith), because the peer institution is willing to sweeten the pot a little more.</p>

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<p>Actually… I think the payoff is better for those who wait. </p>

<p>My daughter applied to 12 colleges. One reason that she applied to so many was that with her test scores being on the low end for schools like Barnard, there was a lot of uncertainty about her prospects – so it made sense to cast a wide net. </p>

<p>My d. was accepted to 9 colleges – and waitlisted at 2 others – she got into other schools that we all thought were big reaches for her, like U. of Chicago – and she got nice offers of merit aid from schools that were safeties or match/safeties. So it was really a huge ego boost for her.</p>

<p>Obviously, that wouldn’t be the case for a student who gets turned away from many colleges-- but I think that most students who have a reasonable chance of admission at Barnard are very strong applicants – so as long as they don’t make the mistake of applying to only reach schools, they are likely to also have plenty of good news in the spring. </p>

<p>I’d also point out that many ED applicants are rejected or deferred. Those who are rejected experience a devastating blow from their top choice college, right before apps to other schools are due – and that certainly can cast a pall on the process. It might also lead them to be reluctant to apply to other reach colleges – under the rationale that the rejection by one school means that they stand no chance whatsoever of admission at peer colleges or at colleges that are perceived to be more selective. </p>

<p>Those who are deferred have the same amount of stress as the RD applicants, with the added knowledge that the ad com was not impressed enough with the initial app to admit them. Sometimes the reasons for the deferral are obvious – my d. applied EA to Chicago and was stunned and delighted to be deferred – she had been prepared for an outright rejection. But I think for most ED applicants, it would be something of a blow – especially for those who thought their chances were increased by ED – if that is their view of things, then the are going to the RD round knowing that they didn’t make it in the supposedly less competitive ED round. (Again, I don’t buy into the chances thing – I think the stats are skewed by a lot of ED applicants who are legacies, development cases, & recruited athletes, and the unhooked ED applicant has no advantage … but’s my point is simply relate to the emotional impact of a deferral.).</p>

<p>The other thing we see here on CC all the time are students who think of ED as a “card” to play, rather than a reflection of their true top choice - and so try to go to ED to the school most likely to admit them. That is, a student might rationalize that she really would prefer to attend Columbia, but her likelihood of admission there is pretty slim, so it is more advantageous for her to “use” her ED option at Barnard. That student, if admitted to Barnard, is always going to wonder if she could have gotten into Columbia. And given the proximity of the schools, that could be something that creates an underlying sense of frustration for 4 years. </p>

<p>I don’t like ED - I’ve made that clear many times by on CC. I think a lot of students who apply ED are selling themselves short-- they have allowed the hype about the competitiveness of college admissions to undermine their own sense of confidence and willingness to expand their horizons. That’s why I think it’s particularly unfortunate that Barnard takes so much of its class via the ED process – to me, ED is the un-Barnard, – a process by the woman are encouraged to think think that they are not good enough to be admitted without the added benefit of a an admissions boost, which certainly is not a good way to prepare women “major in unafraid”.</p>

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<p>My daughter is a high school junior who is very interested in Barnard and who has been considering applying ED to Barnard next year. During an orientation meeting last month I asked the Barnard admissions officer about ED and financial aid. In response I was told that financial aid was the only basis for turning down an ED offer. She also said that this rarely happens, only one student last year.
Despite our need for significant financial aid we have been considering having our daughter apply ED because of what we perceive to be a significant increased chance of admission (52% versus 29% in 2009) if one applies to Barnard ED. But, calmom (I assume you also live in California) has certainly given us very good reasons not to apply ED and I am thankful for all of her advice. I am particularly concerned about the fact that the financial aid offered as part of the ED offer is only an estimate. While this is understandable, the result appears to be that a student accepted ED gives up her right to apply to other colleges in reliance on a financial aid package that may change. It also appears that once the financial aid package becomes final the student will have to accept it because it will be too late to apply to other colleges. So, we are going to have to reconsider the advisability of applying ED to Barnard or any other college.</p>

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<p>I am a fan of ED for the right person at the right school (whereas calmom admits “I don’t like ED”), but in this case I agree that ED is probably not appropriate for your daughter. Being “very interested” is not enough, and using ED to increase admission chances is the wrong idea, especially when financial aid is in the mix. Better to compare financial aid offers this time.</p>

<p>Applying ED needing FA should be done only to the one dream school above all others, where the only question is: can I afford it? We see many happy stories here of great outcomes (and also some sad ones where the dream school was out of financial reach, where RD applications then had to be sent to other schools).</p>

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<p>Please do not look at admission stats as equating to likelihood of getting accepted. My d. was accepted RD in the most selective (statistically) admissions year in Barnard’s recent history – my d’s test scores put her in the bottom quartile that year, and she had some glaring weaknesses on her academic record, particularly as far as high school math. Obviously she had some strengths as well & we figured that she had about a 50/50 chance of admission, based upon what she was bringing to the table.</p>

<p>The ED pool is different than the RD pool; the admission percentages reflect that – but it doesn’t tell you all that much about “chances” because the pool is different.</p>

<p>You really have to think about why colleges offer ED and how they benefit from it. ED offers colleges a chance to lock in candidates who the college wants – so it benefits the college every time they admit a full pay student or a student they would be sure to admit in any case, and it makes the students who have top stats in the ED pool particularly attractive. It does NOT benefit the college to lock in a marginal candidate who needs financial aid, especially as the college has the option of deferring the student to the RD pool – why tie up a space with a weaker candidate that could later be filled with a stronger candidate. </p>

<p>(Barnard is need-blind, but I don’t think any college is truly need-ignorant in admissions – there are all sorts of factors in the application that telegraph an array of facts about the applicants – so even if the ED process in theory doesn’t consider need, the ad com knows that in practice there are fewer needy students in the ED pool, and that they are not doing themselves any favors by admitting the type of students who might actually turn down the spot based on financial aid considerations.)</p>

<p>In the RD pool the dynamic changes somewhat. For one thing, the college has to be more concerned with yield, so the very highest stat applicants in the RD pool become suspect – the ad com has to determine whether those students are likely to attend Barnard if admitted, or if they see Barnard as a safety – so they probably waitlist some very high stat RD applicants who would have been admitted ED, if they don’t “feel the love” via other factors in the application. (It’s not that they don’t want those students – its that they are guessing that the students are unlikely to attend even if admitted – I’m sure that by now anyone on the Barnard ad com can easily spot a Columbia wannabe, and they know that 9 times out of 10, their Columbia cross-admits will end up enrolling at the college across the street). </p>

<p>At the same time, a much higher percentage of the RD pool includes students who are poorer fits for Barnard – since Barnard is not their top choice for college – and the ad com probably has a pretty good sense of fit. Plus there are probably more students applying RD who simply are not qualified or likely to get in, because its easy enough to add more common app schools into the RD mix, and the RD pool probably also has many more students who haven’t done all that much research into the school before applying.</p>

<p>So I think it is always a mistake to opt for ED under the idea that it will somehow increase “chances” – especially at a school like Barnard, where RD admission isn’t in that crazy competitive, single digit range in any case. </p>

<p>So, if your kid doesn’t have her heart set on Barnard – ED isn’t appropriate. And even if your kid does have her heart set on Barnard – if YOU as a parent don’t have the attitude that you will do whatever it takes to send her there, even if the financial aid comes up short – then ED isn’t appropriate. Keep in mind that NYC is an expensive place to live, airline fares cross-country seem to be going up, a Californian going east typically has to spend money on winter clothing, and Barnard has various policies (including new ones) that give financial aid recipients less flexibility. For example – Barnard won’t subsidize off campus living, so your d. can’t save money by moving off campus in her sophomore or junior; meal plans of some sort are now mandatory for all 4 years, so you won’t be able to fully drop the meal plan as I did with my d. </p>

<p>Finally, when you are told something along the lines that “only one” student turned down Barnard due to financial aid the previous year-- you really don’t know what happened to other students who may have taken on more financially than they had planned in order to pay for college. Keep in mind that the ED pool consists of families who are highly motivated to attend, with that make-or-break attitude on the part of the parents that I mentioned above. There may be many families who are disappointed but not deterred by weak financial aid offers, who accept those offers and then end up borrowing far more over the years than they had planned, or who face unpleasant financial consequences down the line. </p>

<p>One factor that really isn’t considered by many is the full four-year cost. A family may be able to stretch with borrowing in year #1 – but what happens by year #4? Keep in mind that at any college, even if the EFC is stable over 4 years, there will be slight shifting toward more loans, less grants each year, as well as a somewhat increased expectation as to student earnings. Barnard is good about telling you what that is – you can find the info on their web site – but I’d suggest that the financial-aid seeking family who does opt for ED probably isn’t thinking about that. (I make that suggestion simply because the ED option itself does not really make much sense for the forward-thinking, financially needy family – so I think its safe to assume that the kind of parent who likes to make a spreadsheet projecting costs out over 4 years - like me – probably is not represented in the ED pool).</p>

<p>One more thing: it’s hard to believe, but those 4 years rush by in the blink of an eye, and in the end you are likely to have a kid with a BA in hand who realizes that their career aspirations required some sort of higher degree. My kid is one of those, but she’s out of school and working because I can’t finance grad school and she’s got a lot of debt to pay off. </p>

<p>I don’t regret opting for Barnard at all - in fact, I think that the Barnard choice has opened up all kinds of doors for my d. – but I am glad that it was made eyes open, fully knowing the range of financial options before us.</p>

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<p>Although we still need to do research on each college, when we took our tour of East coast colleges in August (16 tours and orientations plus an additional 3 short visits) we were extremely impressed with most of them and thought that our daughter, and she agrees, would be fortunate to have the opportunity to attend the vast majority. My daughter is not necessarily all that interested in attending a college for women only, but we were really looking forward to visiting Barnard because of positive things we had read about it, because of its location in NYC, and because of its close affiliation with Columbia (mostly being able to use its resources and because it is coed). We were very impressed with our visit and Barnard continues to be one of her most preferred colleges.
While my daughter would jump at the opportunity to attend Yale or Harvard, they are so hard to get into. We still have more than a year before she needs to start applying and I do not think that at this point it makes sense for her to be ranking colleges as first choice, second choice, etc. This is especially true since most of the schools she is looking at are very difficult to get into. While she has not done anything yet which would exclude her from contention at the most selective colleges, she has only just started the all important 11th grade and is taking, like most students who want to go to a top school, difficult classes. Perhaps she will not do as well in these classes as we hope or perhaps will not do well enough on the SAT or ACT (her first attempt at the ACT would appear to be above average at Barnard but a little below average at the Ivys). So, we are not assuming that she will be able to get into her top choices and at this point we are looking group of about 20 select East coast colleges, UCs, and Stanford.
I said in an earlier posting that my daughter was “very interested” in Applying ED to Barnard. Obviously, she would never have actually applied ED to Barnard next year unless she was willing to give up the opportunity to attend all other colleges. While we continue to believe that Barnard would be an excellent choice, I now believe that applying ED would probably not be a good idea. In reflecting on my thinking, I guess I have been considering applying ED/EA an asset that should not be wasted. I have always liked the idea of EA better than ED, but the only two schools my daughter is considering that have EA are Yale and Stanford and the chances of admission to either is small, even if she continues to do well. As a result, it appeared that it might be a wasted opportunity to apply EA to either of them and that is why we started thinking about applying ED to Barnard. I guess we will now back to plan A and consider applying EA at Yale or Stanford, assuming she continues to do well in high school and achieves a higher score on the SAT or ACT.
Thanks to all who have posted on this thread. All of the information and advice has been very helpful.</p>

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<p>I think that as a parent you need to shift your focus somewhat more to schools in the match/safety range, especially if you are concerned about finances. Your daughter may also be eligible for merit aid at many excellent colleges - often with merit money thrown into the mix, combined with need-based aid, you will do better than with need money alone.</p>

<p>Also, if your daughter does well on the PSAT’s, that can change the picture immensely. The cutoff for National Merit in California in recent years has been around 218, and there are some excellent schools that are quite generous with NM finalists. USC in California is one example; and if your d. really wants to go out east, I understand that Fordham is also very generous as well. </p>

<p>ED is not a “card” to be played – it is a system by which private colleges protect their yield and build a significant portion of their class early on, and by which individuals who can afford the cost of attendance and are sure of their college choice can get an early answer and put the college admissions season behind them. Roughly half of the students at Barnard are full pay, and many, perhaps most, of those full pay kids come from families who are able to pay without batting an eye. There are a lot of very, very affluent students at Barnard. That is probably true of most other elite, private colleges – but it’s one more factor that militates against applying ED for a west coaster who comes from a more modest financial background – there’s a culture shock factor. Barnard was NOT a particularly good place for my daughter as a social environment. She found her niche over time, but that’s not the sort of thing you would find out on a campus visit. </p>

<p>If you want some schools “in the bag” early on, look for other schools that offer EA. My d. applied EA to Chicago – she was deferred, but admitted in the spring. I couldn’t imagine my d. attending Chicago in a million years, but it was quite a feather in her cap and an confidence-booster to be admitted, and I think just the process of doing the EA application helped her get into the swing of things during application season. She also had planned to apply EA to Northeastern, but missed the deadline – she did apply RD and was also admitted there and offered some merit aid. </p>

<p>But my main point is, your d. needs to build her college list from the bottom up, not top down – that is, start with the safeties. That may be the UC’s for her – and that’s fine – as long as she truly is willing to attend one of the non-flagship campuses. </p>

<p>Barnard is an excellent college, but my point is that it is one of many, and it’s not all about rankings and prestige. So encourage your d. to keep Barnard on her list, but to look at the application process as a shopping excursion. The best result is to be left with several affordable, good choices in the spring – and have the luxury of choosing among them. There is still a huge amount of growth and change that occurs during high school senior year, and no matter how much research you think you’ve done, you are still learning new things about the various colleges all the way into the spring.</p>

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<p>Calmom, thanks again for your advice. With respect to EA/ED, while it would be nice to have a college “in the bag” early on the only schools our daughter is considering that have EA are Stanford and Yale. I do not see the benefit of having our daughter apply EA to a school unless she is actually interested in attending. She is really only interested in attending college in California or the East coast, preferably in a large city. Since there are plenty of good schools in these areas we do not see the need to expand our search to other areas. And we do not need any additional schools as we have had to work hard to get the number down from 30+ to the 20 she is currently considering. We need to delete more colleges from the list, not add them. She will only apply to a school early if it is one of her top choices, otherwise she will just apply RD.
You should not think that we have built our daughter’s list of schools from the top down as this is not true. We have a number of excellent schools in California which my daughter would be more than happy to attend. For example, she will likely apply to UCI, UCSB, and UC Santa Cruz, and absent some disaster these will all be safeties for her (she will likely end up in the top 4% of her class and will qualify as ELC and the ELC admission rates for these schools are 96.7%, 98.3%, and 97.4%).<br>
When we went on our East Coast college trip we were not looking for a safety. What would be the point of that when we have so many good choices that are much closer. No, we were only looking at schools that are, at least for my daughter, so good that they are better than anything she could get into in California. That is why we only visited the top colleges, not because we were working from the top down. We already had her safeties and a few matches and reaches and were simply looking at other options to make sure that we were not overlooking anything. What we found were a number of additional great colleges that my daughter would like to attend.</p>