Financial Aid in Future Years

Paying for College
1

<p>We have five children, the first of whom is heading into her senior year, with sisters to follow her to college in her sophomore and senior years.</p>

<p>I have two questions (probably to start):</p>

<p>Are upcoming kids accounted for in the oldest base year aid calculation; and </p>

<p>How does our family get comfortable that a college/university will treat us fairly in years 2-4, especially where our oldest is likely to get little to no aid in the initial year?</p>

<p>I know we will need to review this with the fa officers at the different schools DD1 decides to apply to, but any suggestions and tips would be appreciated.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

2

<p>*
Are upcoming kids accounted for in the oldest base year aid calculation;*</p>

<p>NO. Only students who are IN college are counted. There’s no guarantee that future kids will go to college. However, the overall size of your family gets counted when figuring contribution. </p>

<p>Don’t mistakenly think that EFC is a number that indicates some kind of sliding scale for what you’ll have to pay. Most people have to pay MORE than their EFC. Most schools cannot meet need.</p>

<p>Colleges use EFC to determine whether your income is low enough to get free fed aid. </p>

<p>How does our family get comfortable that a college/university will treat us fairly in years 2-4, especially where our oldest is likely to get little to no aid in the initial year?</p>

<p>That’s the scary part. There’s a mom who posted today whose daughter got great aid package the first year, and a lousy one for soph year - even though income/assets didn’t change. Some schools give better FA the first year to attract students, and then give worse packages later. So, you’d need some kind of assurance from the particular school.</p>

<p>Also, remember, most schools don’t meet need anyway. So, even if your “need” goes up with more kids in college, your child’s FA package may stay the same.</p>

<p>Usually, only the top, top schools guarantee to meet need without big loans.</p>

<p>Another problem can be…say child #1 gets into a top, top school that promises meets need. Great! You’ll get good aid from THAT school if you qualify But, say child #2 & child #3 don’t get into generous schools. You could end up paying for nearly all of child #2’s and child #3’s costs and some of child #1’s costs. </p>

<p>One way to combat this is to apply to schools that will give your child merit scholarships for stats. IF your child keeps a good GPA in college, then you’ll know that - at least - you’ll have that money to help pay for college.</p>

<p>If I were you, I would definitely look at some schools that give good merit if your oldest has good stats. </p>

<p>What are her stats?</p>

3

<p>Mom2college kids is absolutely right. There is no guarantee of anything when it comes to financial aid. With the shake up with the economy and investments, many schools are changing financial aid and merit policies. Some announce them, but some do not. Small changes are often not announced but can make a big difference on some of us.</p>

<p>Though the fact that you have 5 kids is taken into account when calculating EFC by FAFSA and by all other financial aid calculators such as PROFILE, there is no assumption that about future college for those kids. Some PROFILE schools and those with their own apps will take into account tuition for your other kids if you have them in private schools, or if they have special needs and you are paying for programs and education to meet those needs. But not all schools.</p>

<p>The first step with financial aid is FAFSA is what most folks say. If your child is applying to PROFILE school, I’ve always felt that is the first calculator to use. IF you are middle class, the only thing you are going to get from the FAFSA numbers are loans, maybe subsidized while the student is in schools, and those are at the $10K mark only in special situations. Staffords cap out at about $4K or so, don’t remember exact amount, for freshmen. So that EFC is really not a useful number for you if your child is looking at private schools that use PROFILE or their own apps. Many kids who are in divorced parents situations get a totally skewed result from FAFSA as only the custodial parent and spouse’s financials are taken into account. PROFILE generally wants the value of the gold in your teeth, as well as that in spouse’s, your ex and his/her spouse, in a divorce/remarriage scenario, and that of your other kids’ as well.</p>

<p>If you need or want a discount from the the $50K+ that the most expensive private schools are charging, you need to do some numbers by running a PROFILE calculator on your situation to see what range you are expected to pay from that group of schools. Run the FAFSA calculator too, just in case you are eligible for the PELL grant because other govt goodies can come with that, but you need to have a pretty low EFC to get that. Then you research what those colleges typically fund in terms of financial need. You may find that School A typically meets 70% of need, so you can see what they might expect you to pay.</p>

<p>As Mom2collegekids says, looking at some schools with good merit aid can give you somewhat of a break. Your student has to be in the top 4-10% in stats, usually test scores to get that kind of money, and not all schools give merit aid. </p>

<p>Finally, look at lower cost alternatives such as your state schools and local schools. My son has his eye on a school that discounts its expensive tuition for commuters. That can bring the cost almost within our comfort zone. ‘’</p>

<p>Gotta cast a wide net to get some money.</p>

4

<p>The bottom line is unless all of these kids are top students who can make it into the likes of HYPS and the few others offering generous need based aid, all bets are off. The vast majority of schools simply don’t meet need and don’t give a hoot how many you have in college. The 100% meet need schools that give a damn are few and far between. You’ll need to look at merit and state schools too unless they are all off the charts.</p>

5

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<p>Well…they ARE counted as members of your household. Increased numbers in your household does reduce your EFC. In other words…if you have 5 children, your EFC would be lower than if you only had one…with the same income.</p>

<p>BUT the reduction is not as signficant as the one when you have kids in college simultaneously. As noted above, that divides your total EFC amongst the college student siblings.</p>

6

<p>I’m a financial aid director at a private university, so I can also answer your questions.</p>

<p>Colleges/Universities at private, selective institutions that use the CSS Profile DO take younger children into account in the EFC. The Cumulative Education Savings Allowance accounts for the fact that parents are still saving for other siblings coming up as well as the child that is entering the college/university. As the others have stated, the FAFSA does not do an adequate job in accounting for siblings.</p>

<p>The only way you can know if a school will adjust the financial aid package when more than one child is in college is to ask. I know that is obvious, but it’s true. You need ask specific questions about how is the “gift aid” affected if your demonstrated need increases in future years. Is there a threshold of increased need at which additional gift aid is awarded? Do institutional grants and scholarships stay at the same value each year, or are they adjusted based on tuition/costs of attendance?</p>

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<p>We are looking to have D1 include merit schools on her “list,” as she is focusing primarily on need based only PROFILE schools. She has very strong stats (top 2% of class in most rigorous curriculum, 35 ACT/2190 SAT, will be NMF) and is strongly oriented at this point towards a LAC or possibly a small university with strong sciences (ie Carleton, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Wellesley, Haverford, WASHU, Chicago, Grinnell, Kenyon), only the latter four of which offer any merit aid, with the first two of those being a crapshoot. She very much is looking for an intellectual community for a fit since her high school has been very rough on her socially. </p>

<p>D2 (a rising junior) will have good (though less impressive academic stats), and is looking for a DIII LAC away from home where she can play her sport.</p>

<p>The other three will be in 9th, 7th and 4th grades, so who knows, but it adds up to a lot of college tuition over the next dozen or so years.</p>

<p>Where my wife and I struggle mightily is in trying to define a commitment we can make to the first that we can live by with all of the kids the current system does not make for great planning and as mom2collegekids notes, can be scary. </p>

<p>I will take on cptofthehouse suggestion of spending more time with the PROFILE calculator since it is likely to be more relevant at this time than FAFSA. I have run numbers on some individual school calculators and have been generally (positively) surprised, but the idea of a year 2-4 surprise terrifies me. I want to do for all what I do for one.</p>

<p>BTW, I don’t post much, but I have tried to do my homework on CC and elsewhere before asking for help, so thanks for all the help thus far and any additional thoughts, suggestions or resources are appreciated.</p>

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<p>Yes, and the burden is on you to do this. Your daughter sounds like a fine student and those colleges on her list are very tempting. But you have five kids you need to figure out how to send to college. Unless you’re rich, you won’t be able to be full-pays at five private schools.</p>

<p>It sounds like you’re just getting started so just to let you know many families find that the amount they are left to pay after they have received need-based assistance is a lot. I think your daughter should look a little harder at the colleges that offer merit scholarships.</p>

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<p>I’m not exactly sure what you are saying here. If your daughter gets no aid in her first year why would she qualify for aid in years 2-4?</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>When the younger sibs are in college, D1 might then qualify for aid (because family contribution will drop.)</p>

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<p>*Where my wife and I struggle mightily is in trying to define a commitment we can make to the first that we can live by with all of the kids *</p>

<p>Completely understand this. You don’t want to be one of those parents that breaks the bank for child #1 and then has to tell the younger sibs that there’s no money or much less money for them. </p>

<p>Some parents in your situation (multiple kids) have the following position… They’ll tell their kids that they will pay the equivalent of their state school (either tuition only or the full amount) and if the child wants to go elsewhere (for more money) that child will have to find schools that will either give grants, scholarships, or small fed student loans to make up the difference. I would not agree to allowing large loans to make up the difference.</p>

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<p>Gettysburg,Dickinson, Lafayette, Denison, Wooster, are some smaller schools that have merit money as well as good financial aid.The Catholic colleges are also generous to high stat kids with merit money. Carnegie Mellon has some merit awards for females going into the sciences. </p>

<p>I ran into the same problem with my 5 kids. We spent a fortune on our first one. Could not do enough, could not spend enough. Now we see where that could lead us. Thankfully, my second went to a state uni which was affordable, and the third has his expensive costs mitigated by a merit award. We are looking at schools for our fourth who may end up commuting to a local private uni to meet the budget constraints we have.</p>

<p>Also, Florida has some nice LACs with some scholarship possibilities such as Eckerd College, Stetson and Rollins.</p>

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<p>*We are looking to have D1 include merit schools on her “list,” as she is focusing primarily on need based only PROFILE schools. She has very strong stats (top 2% of class in most rigorous curriculum, 35 ACT/2190 SAT, will be NMF) and is strongly oriented at this point towards a LAC or possibly a small university with strong sciences (ie Carleton, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Wellesley, Haverford, WASHU, Chicago, Grinnell, Kenyon), only the latter four of which offer any merit aid, with the first two of those being a crapshoot. She very much is looking for an intellectual community for a fit since her high school has been very rough on her socially. *</p>

<p>If you set the standard with your first child of going to a “need only” expensive school, then you are setting a standard that younger kids can do the same. You could end up with some major education bills since the younger ones may not get accepted to schools that give great aid. </p>

<p>I understand your concern with your D’s high school experience. You really don’t have to worry about that in college. A student doesn’t have to go to a top, top school in order to have a social life with other smart kids. Many colleges have very smart kids and some have Honors programs. </p>

<p>You probably know that your D’s ACT 35 is much higher than her SAT. Her score could result in big merit at various schools. If you carefully select some of these schools, you will find that she won’t be some unusual smart student specimen.</p>

<p>Many of us here have kids with similar stats - NMFs, Vals, high test scores, etc. We can assure you that your child doesn’t have to go to a tippy top school in order to be around intellectual stimulation and to be around her academic peers.</p>

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<p>However, it’s not as though each kid is “owed” the equivalent of his siblings. I don’t feel that S2 is owed the difference between a private education and his state school costs. Too many other factors in play. It is not unusual for a family to have kids with different personalities and desires that result in very different college lists.</p>

<p>I have a friend who insisted that his two oldest go to the very fine state flagship university. He knew that the third one was not likely to get accepted there, and really needed a smaller, more personal environment for a better chance to succeed at colege than his siblings, so they did focus on the smaller private schools for him. As much as he and his wife believed strongly in the state school models, when they looked at their youngest child, they could feel to the marrow of their bones that it was a good fit for him. </p>

<p>Also, it can depend on the department and program of some state schools, as to what sort of students and the attention one gets. My son went to a small program at a largish state school. He experienced little of the bureacracy issues of getting into classes and big lecture halls since his program was pretty much pre planned for him and involved a small group. So it was with my friend’s son who went to a huge school but was in the small Aeronautics program. Honors Colleges also are great deals for good students who want to be with their peers and in a smaller environment with more discussion opportunities with the professors.</p>

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<p>I realize that each child has different needs. However, parents should try to be careful not to give the appearance that they are willing to “spend more” for the “smart child.”</p>

<p>And, of course, if a family’s financial situation changes, sometimes parents have to re-evaluate what the family can afford to spend. </p>

<p>I come from a family of 7 kids. My parents couldn’t make everything perfectly equal (and no one expected that), but there would have been some resentment if my parents had spent the farm on #1 child, and then the rest only had the cheapest options.</p>

14

<p>I’m still trying to understand the EFC calculations. If there are going to be 2 in college, then each of them gets 1/2 of the EFC at their particular school? So if your EFC were, say $60K, each school would see it as $30K and you might get some help with the difference? but maybe not depending on the school?</p>

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<p>That’s where the all-important questions of how much “need” they cover, and how they meet it, come into play. It may be that, short of taking a full-ride (obviously, the best and safest option if she can keep her gpa high), the best strategy for middle income families with kids closely spaced would be to also target schools that guarantee to meet 100% of need and have no/low loan policies (within the defined income/residency requirements which vary by school). This would include some very good LAC’s and two great publics, as well as some of the ivies. The Project on Student Debt site maintains a detailed list of these schools.</p>

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<p>I think what has been most frustrating is the lack of transparency in the factors that determine aid. Some schools state have FA calculators (which I find most helpful if they are to be trusted), but most look to protect their “black box” calculations and generally refer to their aid calculation philosophy or maybe identify a few factors. At least a couple of the schools seemed to protect assets for kids not yet in college, so that’s encouraging. </p>

<p>I obviously have control or trust issues, but the process makes me nervous as I harbor no illusions as to trusting that things will work by the numbers in a way that works for us. There aren’t too many products or services out there where you commit to buy four of something but are only told the price of the first.</p>

<p>It is an interesting tension between wanting to do as much for your kids as possible, but wanting to treat them fairly, if not equally. We are without question very fortunate and upper middle class by any standard, and have saved some for each kid in a 529, but the economy is very fragile right now and planning out 12 years is nothing but a rough forecast. </p>

<p>Not that it matters, but I mistyped D1’s SAT- she was 2290 with 1580 in M/CR, so the ACT and SATs are roughly equivilant. We are trying to get her comfortable with more financial safeties as part of a portfolio of applications. </p>

<p>Incidentally, mom2collegekids, one of the top kids at my daughter’s high school (and NMF) is going to Alabama for for the Honors program and great tuition deal. I believe I am remembering correctly that your two sons go there, so word certainly is spreading about the opportunities there. It seems like a great program.</p>

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<p>*
I obviously have control or trust issues, but the process makes me nervous*</p>

<p>I don’t think you have “control issues” - I think you’re being wise to be concerned. You have 5 kids to put thru college. I have a brother with 7 kids, a brother with 5 kids, and 2 brothers with 4 kids each. So, I know how larger families need to look into the future and determine how choices for the #1 child will affect the younger ones. </p>

<p>Yes, my two sons are at Bama…one has the NMF scholarship and the other has the Presidential & engineering scholarships. Both are in the honors programs. One is in the CBH program. This choice will make help paying for med school and grad (or law) school much easier. We didn’t want them to have huge debt from that. They will have some debt from that, but not the $200k+ that they normally would have.</p>

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<p>Of course you are nervous. Given an upper middle class situation, PROFILE calculators will best give you what you are likely to get in aid. If you fall in the category of most who put themselves in that economic group, it is doubtful you will get any financial aid for one child unless there are some truly extenuating circumstances, or you are seriously misdefining the term upper middle. Even most who consider themselves middle class often get no aid for one child in college.</p>

<p>Your daughters scores, however put her into the category of being in the market for some merit scholarships. Take a look at the threads on those. Schools like Duke, WakeForest, UNCchapelhill, Emory, UChicago, Johns Hopkins, Georgia Tech, have some very selective merit awards that she can attempt to get. Then there are schools like some state flagships, Pitt, Fordham, Rhodes, Tulane that also have some really good merit scholarships for high stats.</p>

<p>If you fall in the typical category of folks that are upper middle class, you are most likely to end up with your D accepted to a highly selective school with no financial aid awards and no merit money. Full pay. The alternative would be a cheaper school such as your state schools or commuting, or less selective private schools that will offer her a generous merit award. Unfortunately that is not the choice you would get with other kids who don’t sport those high test scores. </p>

<p>If you have another due to go to college while your D is still there, you might get aid with the double doozy. Check the calculators and see what two in college would do for your financial aid numbers. </p>

<p>My son had a 2300+ SAT1 with a similar CR/Math breakdown and did not even make the first cut for the top scholarships though he got into the school. He did get some nice awards at schools like Fordham, Fairfield, Rhodes. Smaller awards at the more selective schools. Admissions to an ivy, but no financial aid. My oldest who was an athlete with fairly decent academic numbers got into a number of selective schools, but the only athletic scholarship, or any scholarship that he was offered was at St Bonaventure. Could have gotten other offers, but the schools he wanted either did not give athletic scholarships or he fell just short of the caliber needed to get them. And he was a national level athlete. Son2 got a number of merit offers despite lower grades and test scores due to performing arts prowess but the amounts were all $5K and under, hardly a scratch towards the high private school costs. This, I find is typical among middle class families.<br>
With two kids in college for a year here and there we just qualify for some subsidized loans under FAFSA. Hardly much in terms of aid. We have to plan accordingly as we will have two in school in two years. If the older keeps his merit award and earns what he is, we’ll squeak by with some effort.</p>

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<p>If you have another due to go to college while your D is still there, you might get aid with the double doozy. Check the calculators and see what two in college would do for your financial aid numbers.</p>

<p>The school for child #1 might give great aid after child #2 goes, but if child #2 doesn’t have the stats to go to an elite school, then likely THAT school won’t give great aid just because two are in college. That is the rub. :(</p>