Finding an intellectual college for a clueless 17-year-old

Student Lounge International Students
201

Lawrence is essentially suburban – Appleton is a city of ~80000 in the Fox River Valley, which has Green Bay (of Packer fame) at the northern end and Fond du Lac at the southern end. Oshkosh (of Oshkosh B’Gosh fame and a big annual EAA event) and Neenah are two of the other larger towns in the area. I think it essentially resembles a suburban sprawl, and Appleton is in the middle of it.

Beloit College is in a town of about 35000 45 minutes south of Madison and maybe 90 minutes from downtown Chicago.

Lawrence and Beloit are very close academic peers and are considered the top two LACs in Wisconsin.

Both are good schools, with their share of intellectualism, and would be low matches or safeties for the OP.

I believe Earlham is in a smaller town than Appleton or Beloit. Without looking at Maps i'm not sure about its proximity to cities. It is another fine option probably in low match territory.

I think we’ve already named many of the most intellectual urban or suburban universities and LACs. (and in the case of the LACs, if they are rural, they’re at least within 30-45 minutes of a large city).

If you include truly rural intellectual LACs, you’re adding many more quality options, like Williams, Hamilton and Middlebury. That’s up to you, OP.

Keeping Clark, NCF and Sarah Lawrence as safeties means you have three quality options, which (imo) should be plenty, provided you like them.

Finally – I think Brown is fairly intellectual for a university, but by reputation, at least, it is not hard like Columbia, Chicago, Carleton, Swat, or Reed. That said, with the open curriculum, I suppose a student could make it about as challenging or as easy as he or she wished. So if the OP ended up at Brown and wanted to fashion an academic gauntlet, she likely could. The overall academic intensity of the place might pale in comparison to some of the others, but she could make Brown as hard as Brown can be.

202

@OutOfKantrol - Sorry I hadn’t responded earlier to your queries; it’s Family Weekend at Stanford, so I’ve been a tad busy.

I’m sorry you’ve taken Stanford off the list, as I am evermore convinced that it is an absolutely incredible place with a lot to offer students in just about every field. Their humanities programs are second to none. The administration and the powers that be have been making a concerted effort to support the arts and humanities programs, putting their money where their proverbial mouths are through well-funded arts initiatives that have transformed the campus and brought in some amazing faculty:

https://arts.stanford.edu/about/

https://www.sfchronicle.com/item/Arts-explosion-rocks-Stanford-29469.php

And while STEM may reign supreme, I see this more as a function of recent trend in education in general – one that Stanford is seeking to temper with its aforementioned arts initiative. If anything, schools like Yale, Princeton, and Harvard are scrambling to shore up some of their STEM programs to match those offered here. And, yes, there are many more computer scientists per capita, there is a significant cohort of humanities kids and robust programming to keep them happy. And while there may be great sports programs here, it does not dominate the culture by any stretch of the imagination.

Rest assured, there are no shortage of exceedingly bright and very talented students engaged in the life of the mind here at Stanford. That said, fun most certainly does not come here to die.

My D had similar concerns to yours and could not be more convinced that she made the best possible choice in coming here.

203

“I don’t understand why you would even consider a school like Carleton when you have a good chance of getting into Oxford’s PPE program.”

OP is not strong in math; I don’t think PPE would be a good fit for her.

OP: you’ve probably discounted it, but have you considered applying to Cambridge for straight philosophy or are you set on the US liberal arts’ breadth?

204

Good morning. The camp followers are out in force, I see.

205

@OutOfKantrol: Please apply to Harvard. Why ? It’s a good school that meets your criteria.

Also, To Americans you can state with pride that you went to Harvard, and to British folks you can say you went to school in Cambridge.

Additionally, to College Confidential enthusiasts, you can start an exciting thread raising the issue as to whether you apply to Harvard University or to Harvard College, and from which did you graduate.

206

@Conformist1688 Yes, I have discounted philosophy at Cambridge; I am dead set on the US liberal arts curriculum. Even if I wasn’t, however, I’m personally not a fan of the Cambridge philosophy programme.

@FreePariah Yeah, @Conformist1688 got it right. It is pretty much impossible to get into Oxford PPE without having none some A-Level maths.

@brantly Ah, thanks for the correction. With so many names it’s hard to keep track sometimes.

@momrath Yes, I will be able to visit before applying, but I doubt I will have enough time to visit all the schools I’m currently considering but I could probably swing 15-20. I have half term in October which gives me 12 days, half term in May which gives me 11, and if need be I have the very end of summer when most US colleges on the semester system have gone back so that gives me between 1-2 weeks. I won’t be able to visit during Easter, however, as I’m on a history school trip.

As for my ECs, I’ll include them here but I’ll try to be vagueish for anonymity purposes: My main EC would be writing. I currently write novels on a certain website and currently have 750k+ reads. I also write articles, several of which have been featured on the home page of a popular website, and I’ve also been published in several other magazines. I run a literature themed blog with 100k+ followers. I’m in my schools debate club (since year 10) and should be leader next year, history and politics society (since year 11), philosophy club (since year 12), I did chess club in years 10 and 11 (gave this up to join philosophy club - not sure whether I’ll include this), and this year started I started a tutoring club for the humanities.

As for rural colleges, I’m still not sure if they’re for me, but I guess I should probably be open to the idea. I think a good idea would be to visit the Williams campus and judge for myself whether or not I can handle it. I will be honest, though. I most likely will still have a preference for colleges in or nearer urban areas so the college would have to be a really good fit for me to consider it, like Williams - dang it, I am slowly falling in love with this school. I guess that means I am open to rural college suggestions. I would also love to hear other people’s opinions about whether the location of a college matters much.

@theloniusmonk Why should I, if I do apply ED, only use it on Columbia, Swarthmore, or UChicago? Does Brown not give ED much of a boost? Someone mentioned that UChicago is becoming almost impossible during RD, but do they give EA a boost?

@Publisher If you’re trying to sell Harvard to me, you’ll have to try another angle than its brand name. I haven’t taken it off my list, but I would say it is right down the bottom.

@LoveTheBard I hope you’re having a wonderful time at Family Weekend. Yeah, I’m sorry to see it go to - I really did love the sound of SLE. I have no doubt that there are tons of intellectual students at Stanford (like your daughter), but I just felt that there are too many other colleges that seem like better fits for me that it didn’t make much sense keeping it on my list. However, if/when I do visit Reed, I’ll have to fly into San Francisco so I may go down to visit the Stanford campus.

I get that you can apply early decision II if I was to apply restrictive/single choice early action somewhere, but can I apply somewhere early action II? I’ve checked the websites for Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford which are the only places I know that offer the plan and none of them say anything about EA II. Do any of you know? Or should I email one of them?

207

Not trying to sell you on Harvard; just trying to add a bit of levity to the process.

208

It might be worth having a look at Oberlin. It IS in a very rural location, but I think you might feel comfortable with the atmosphere there.

209

I mean, if a kid wanted an highly intellectual experience at Harvard, that certainly could be found. Harvard is absolutely top-notch – as good as Yale, Princeton, Columbia, UChicago – in many humanities and social sciences programs. I don’t want to discourage you from reading into it if H interests you.

I will say, all of the universities on your list except for Tufts and Brandeis have single-digit acceptance rates. Brown is right at about 10%, straddling that line. This means you might not get into any of those hyperselective universities. I think that is unlikely, but it is a possibility. These are the most selective colleges in the United States (with Stanford, MIT, and Caltech…), after all.

If you wanted to add a couple of universities to the “low reach” category, you could read about schools like Northwestern, which is very strong in the humanities and social sciences and is hard; Johns Hopkins, which is also hard; and Washington U, which might not be considered to be at the same level of difficulty as Northwestern and Hopkins, but does offer a humanities-rich path.

Northwestern is in Evanston, a northern suburb of Chicago. Johns Hopkins is in Baltimore. And Washington U is in St. Louis. They’re all outstanding.

This way, if you decided you wanted a university rather than a LAC, you could have another option or two in addition to Tufts/Brandeis (if you were shut out of the hyperselectives). It wouldn’t hurt to read about them, anyway. :slight_smile:

210

Brown is consistently among the highest producers of Fulbrights in the U.S., including the past two years, when its students and recent grads outperformed every other college including Harvard:

https://news.brown.edu/articles/2018/02/fulbright

211

If you were to visit these, here’s one way it could be done in, oh, about a month:

  1. Fly into Boston and rent a car.

Massachusetts schools:
Williams - so you can see if it’s too rural
Smith
Clark
Tufts
Wellesley
Brandeis
Harvard

Check out the Freedom Trail.

  1. Drive south to Connecticut & New York: Yale Vassar Sarah Lawrence Columbia/Barnard

Check out a Broadway show.

  1. Drive south to NJ and PA: Princeton Swat Haverford/Bryn Mawr Dickinson

See the Liberty Bell.

If you wanted to see Johns Hopkins, you could stop on the way between PA and Virginia.

  1. Drive south to Virginia: William & Mary

Check out Jamestown.

  1. Fly to Florida: New College of FL

Relax on a beach.

  1. Fly to Memphis, rent a car: Rhodes

Eat some ribs and listen to some blues.

  1. Fly or drive north to Chicago (and rent a car if you flew...): UChicago Earlham Beloit Lawrence Carleton

Eat some chicago-style deep dish pizza and listen to more blues.

If you’re interested in Northwestern and/or Washington U, you would see them during this leg of the trip.

  1. Fly from Minneapolis to Portland: Reed

You could rent a car and drive down to see Stanford if you wanted to.

  1. Fly to Los Angeles: Pomona/Scripps

More beach. Santa Monica Pier, Rodeo Drive, Disneyland, etc.

  1. Fly home from Los Angeles

That would be a pretty decent tour of the US, in addition to giving you the chance to visit all the schools. If I forgot any, just plug them in where it makes sense.

212

OP, @prezbucky and others are giving you excellent information, now with logistical info, as well! Regarding the intellectual leanings at various schools, one could argue that the fraction of undergraduates who go on to earn PhDs is a meaningful yardstick. By that measure, liberal arts colleges do quite well. For example, see https://earlham.edu/media/3304975/2017%20Baccalaureate%20Origins%20report.pdf. “Schools like Carleton” figure prominently; Carleton itself is fifth overall. Comments on the scope and methodology of that report appear at the beginning of the document.

213

I forgot Brown – that could be added to the Massachusetts leg.

214

@inboston Interesting list which I have not seen before. Some schools are definitely more pre-professional and some are more post-graduate in orientation. Penn is only Ivy not on. Only two publics out of 50 by my count (New Mexico Institute of Mining and College of William and Mary).

215

Dartmouth and Cornell aren’t on her list either (that i know of) – too rural and too far from cities.

216

@OutOfKantrol - I know that Barnard appreciates writers, so your writing credentials would be a definite boost there. Barnard does have a math/quantitative reasoning requirement (now called “Thinking Quantitatively and Empirically”), but it can be met with “Intro to Symbolic Logic” which is a Philosophy course, and I don’t see how anyone could major win philosophy without a solid grounding in symbolic logic. Certainly it is required for the Barnard philosophy major.

I honestly think that you would be happier at Barnard than Columbia. Smaller classes in general, more access and opportunity to develop close relationships with faculty, and of course full access to courses at Columbia. Barnard really is part of Columbia, but the vibe is different. And the degree comes from Columbia in any case, and no one in the UK is going to know the difference or care. (After all, Oxford consists of 30 different colleges… so why should it matter that Columbia University happens to have 4 for undergrad?)

Your writing also makes Sarah Lawrence essentially a safety for you. Another college that loves its writers.

Do stick with urban or suburban with easy transit to/from major hub or international airports. It will just make the process of coming and going from college and transporting all your stuff so much easier to manage. Williams is a 3.5 hour bus ride from Boston Logan airport. Added to the 6+ hours the flight from London takes and all of the wait and coordinaton time for dealing with airports, clearing customs on your international flight and coordinating flight arrival/departure time with bus service times … and it gets difficult. So a perfectly good reason to exclude rural schools.

Plus, bottom line, if you come to college and find that you enjoy the academic atmosphere but not the campus life so much … urban/suburban provides easier access to a life beyond your campus.

And don’t be afraid to winnow down your list. You don’t have to apply to Harvard or Stanford if they don’t appeal to you. It is true that when it comes down to it, a capable and serious student like yourself will find a niche at just about any of the colleges that have been listed – but I think you will be happier if you narrow your search and focus on colleges that are top choices for you. Getting in really is not going to be a major barrier for you as long as you include some match/safety schools, and finances aren’t a problem, so no need to compare financial aid awards. I honestly think you could do very well with a list of 6-8 colleges. Focus on which colleges seem to best meet your criteria.

217

“I have half term in October which gives me 12 days, half term in May which gives me 11, and if need be I have the very end of summer when most US colleges on the semester system have gone back so that gives me between 1-2 weeks. I won’t be able to visit during Easter, however, as I’m on a history school trip.”

The UK May half term will fall after the end of term at most US colleges that are on a semester-based calendar. So the end of August before school is probably best. I’d save October half term for writing applications while reserving the option of a last minute visit to anywhere you think you missed out on first time (but remember you can always visit after being admitted anyway).

Flying into Boston and back from Washington DC and driving in between would allow you to see most of your top choices (other than Chicago) and is doable in 10 days to 2 weeks. Frankly after a week of non-stop college visits you will probably be less than motivated to see more of them anyway (bear this in mind when deciding where to start and finish).

218

New College of Florida

219

This is from Yale’s website
https://admissions.yale.edu/single-choice-early-action

220

I can’t remember whether this was discussed up-thread, but applying early doesn’t help your chances at several schools, including Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford.