Finding an intellectual college for a clueless 17-year-old

Student Lounge International Students
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Your reach/match/safety groupings are okay as general guidelines. Don’t split hairs between reachy matches and matchy reaches. Admissions at most of these selective schools — especially the LACs— are less data driven than you would think.

Stellar grades and scores are just the entry platform. What gets you through the door is who you are, what you’ve done and what you can contribute to the campus community.

Most importantly internationals cannot rely on US admissions figures as indicators. As a rule of thumb, admissions rates for internationals are about half of what they are for US students. That’s brutal for super selectives that have US rates under 10%.

A typical LAC admits about 80 to 100 internationals each year. That’s from the whole world! Mid sized privates admit more but are also more popular among by internationals. Again this is a generality, but internationals tend to focus on colleges in urban areas and/or with global name recognition. Being full pay is a huge advantage but it’s still a fiercely competitive field.

What you need to concentrate on in the upcoming months is crafting a knock out application that demonstrates why a college should choose you among hundreds of other equally qualified internationals many of whom have compelling life stories. Your essays (especially the “Why College X” topic), your recommendations and your resume will be critical. If you have arts talent, prepare supplemental material as well.

If you can, visit. LACs especially like demonstrated interest. Consider applying early decision if your top choice offers it. Use your summer holiday doing something that reinforces your serious interests.

You don’t want to lie or pad your resume but you do need to think about how to present yourself in your application so that you stand out among other high achieving internationals.

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The problem with setting out reach/match/safety for OP is that she is not likely to get what she is seeking at anything but the reach schools.

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They’re also the only ones one could argue are worth the cost over UK schools (especially Oxbridge) for a high-achieving UK citizen, I think. YMMV.

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Regarding Publisher’s comment #61: I do think some of the non-reaches may provide the intellectual atmosphere, nonrural northeastern setting relatively convenient to an international airport, non-Greek/party-heavy, rich in atheists, and small-to-medium-sized criteria. I think Brandeis checks all of those boxes without exception. My son visited Brandeis twice during his search, so we got a pretty good feel for it.

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Thank you for all your input. I really appreciate it. I’m not too bothered about making a reach/match/safety list yet; I just wanted to know what selectivity variety I should be looking at.

I haven’t gotten through all of them (there’s a lot) and I’ve got a list of some I need to do much more in-depth research into but these are the ones that have caught my eye and have a couple of questions about:

Columbia – This one I know from Gossip Girl and from what I’ve read so far it seems like the show got it really wrong. The access to NYC is awesome yet while still being in a quieter part of Manhattan seems like the best of both worlds to me. And my brain is having an intellectual crush on the core. Literature humanities and contemporary civilisation are EXACTLY the kind of thing I want to study. And I didn’t think about taking an art history class in college but I’m beginning to like the idea more and more. My only concern is the amount of graduate students - is Columbia undergraduate focused?

Yale – I know this one from a different TV show - Gilmore Girls. The residential college system appears to be the perfect way to create a close-knit community while still having the accessibility to a larger campus. Also, I’m really interested in the Directed Studies programme - sounds like the Columbia Core with the bits I’m less interested in cut out. Master’s teas sound amazing too. The only downside to Yale at the moment seems to be that New Haven apparently sucks (and the extremely low acceptance rate).

Swarthmore – You guys were right; this school sounds pretty much perfect for me. From what students have said online it really does seem like a school that fosters intellectual though and a place where the majority of students have a good yet quiet social life that doesn’t involve partying or sports. Also the consortium is a huge plus as it really widens the course selection and enlargers Swarthmore if it ever feels too small. But a lot of people seem to be saying that Swarthmore is very competitive - is this coming from the students or is it an atmosphere the school creates? Also how easy is it to take classes at Penn if I wanted to take a graduate class in philosophy in my upperclassmen years?

UChicago – Is it bad that the idea that it’s where fun goes to die is a positive to me? This seemed to be the other most common one suggested and for a good reason. Seems very similar to Swarthmore in an academic/social sense but with a more collaborative environment and it’s obviously four times the size and a research uni vs LAC. It’s also in Chicago but from the looks of it not right in downtown Chicago which is another plus. The core is the only thing which may be a downside. I love the idea of a core and the intellectualism it fosters but unlike the Columbia core which is very humanities based or Yale’s directed studies which is purely about the humanities, the UChicago core seems to be very well rounded. While science isn’t particularly my thing, I’ve done equivalent to a year of biology, chemistry, and physics, but I’m worried about maths. Maths is not my thing; I had to work really hard to get that 780 on the maths section of the SAT. Plus, I’ll have only done two years of maths compared to four - I won’t have done any calculus and not much pre-calculus. Is this going to be a problem if I have to take two maths classes or maths related classes like statistics or computer science?

Currently also like and researching more about:
Carleton - I’m having trouble working out whether it’s too rural for me.
Smith
Wellesley
Bryn Mawr
Barnard
William & Mary
Reed
Haverford
Vassar

I’ve crossed places like Williams, Grinnell, and Middlebury off my list as, although they seem like great schools that would fit me academically, I can’t get over how rural they are - I would feel claustrophobic. I am not an outdoors person at all, as well.

I’ve aken off NYU, George Washington, and Northeastern. I agree that they don’t have the atmosphere I’m looking for. Also Carnegie Mellon and Rice - the sixth form I’m currently at is STEM focused which I’ve learned is definitely not what I want in a college.

@Hamurtle I was wondering why you didn’t think WashU was right for me? From what I’ve read about it so far it sounds wonderful. What percentage of students go in premed? Will that pre-professionalism leek into the humanities/social sciences. Also thanks for the link.

@kalons I’m not bothered about being in a populous city - I’m fine with large towns like where Bowdoin and Amherst are - I just don’t want to be someone quite as middle of nowhere as Middlebury where the local town doesn’t give you much of a get away from campus.

(How did this post end up being so long?)

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oh, okay, i hear you! if it helps, i think you sound like someone who would physically/mentally/etc. thrive at either swarthmore or uchicago. the rigor of each is no joke, but the quality of each’s education is no joke either. i definitely suggest applying ED1 and ED2 if they end up being your top choices since the regular decision acceptance rates are super tough. :slight_smile:

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Tufts

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Rewritten because I think I somehow deleted it

I’m currently researching the schools that have been recommended to me. Some I’ve scratched, some I plan to look into more, some I really like, and some have really caught my eye that sounds amazing and I have a few questions about:

Columbia – I actually know this one from Gossip Girl, though from what I’ve read so far it sounds like the show got it really wrong. The access is NYC is amazing yet being in a quieter part of Manhattan makes it seem like the best of both worlds. And I absolutely love the sound of the core: literature humanities and contemporary civilisation are exactly the type of thing I’m desperate to study in college. Also I never really thought much about taking an art history class in college but the more I read about art humanities the more I’m loving the idea. But the thing is, Columbia has a huge amount of graduate students - is Columbia too graduate focused? I really just want to learn from inspiring minds and for my tuition money I’d like to hope I’d be taught by professors and not graduate students.

Yale – I know this one from another TV show - Gilmore Girls. The residential college system seems like the perfect way to have a close-knit community in a larger school and to make Yale as big or small as I want to when I need to. They seem to take student publications and political organisations really seriously there which are exactly the extra-curricular activities I’d be involved in in college. Also I think my brain has a crush on the Directed Studies programme - I’m in love. With it discussing philosophy, literature, history, and politics seems like it was made for. It seems like a smaller version of the Columbia core without the bits I don’t like (ahm, Frontiers of Science) that creates more of a collaborative, friendly atmosphere. I like the way Yale has a lot of school spirit that isn’t too tied to sports. The only downsides at the moment are looking like New haven which apparently sucks and, similarly to Columbia but maybe not as bad, the problem that it may not be undergraduate focused enough. Well, that and the acceptance rate, of course.

Swarthmore – You guys were right; this one does sound kind of perfect for me. Swarthmore really does seem to carry and foster and air of intellectualism. The students seem really down-to-earth and like they have healthy but quiet social lives that don’t include much partying or sports. Plus the consortium is a great way to widen my course choice and enlarge the school if it ever feels too small. How easy is it to take classes at Penn if I wanted to take a graduate class in philosophy in my upperclassman years? Also I keep reading that Swarthmore is competitive - is this vibe coming from the students or is it created by the school?

UChicago – Is it bad that I see ‘where fun goes to die’ as a good thing? This and Swarthmore seem to be the two most popular ones recommended to me and for good reason. Academically and socially it seems to me very similar to Swarthmore. The big differences being that UChicago is a research uni which comes with its pros and cons and that it is actually located in a city, not the suburbs, yet it isn’t right in the downtown city centre which is great. However, the core may be a problem. Unlike the Columbia core which is humanities focused, the UChicago core looks well rounded which is great if you are an academically well rounded person. I am not. To put it lightly, STEM is not my thing. It’s not like I’m bad at it, but maths and computing just doesn’t excite me (science I enjoy) and I have to put more than twice as much effort in STEM classes to get the same grades as a humanities/language/social science class, which is time taken away from studying what I love. Science I’m not too worried about as I’ll have done equivalent to a year of biology, chemistry, and physics, but maths I’ll have taken only two years of. Since part of the core is two maths or maths related classes, will I be able to keep up at UChicago?

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Colleges I like and are currently researching more about:
Carleton - I can’t work out whether this one is too rural for me or not.
William & Mary
Wellesley
Pomona
Smith
Bryn Mawr
Haverford
Scripps
Reed
Princeton

I’ve decided to take places like Williams, Grinnell, and Middlebury off my list. Despite them being great schools and probably fitting me very well academically and socially, I just can’t get over how rural they are - as I said before, I would feel claustrophobic. Plus, I am really not an outdoors person, like, at all.

I also took off NYU, George Washington, and Northeastern. I agree; they just don’t have the atmosphere I’m looking for. As well, Rice and Carnegie Mellon - the sixth form I go to is very STEM dominated and it isn’t something I want in a college.

@kalons I’m not really bothered about being in a populous city (although it would be nice). I just don’t want to be quite so in the middle of nowhere as places like Middlebury are. But schools like Amherst and Bowdoin which are in large towns, I’m fine with.

@Hamurtle @aquapt What makes you think that WashU isn’t what I’m looking for? From what I’ve read so far it sounds wonderful. Roughly what percentage of students are pre-med coming into freshman year? Does this pre-professionalism in the science dept. leek into the humanities/social sciences departments?

Also thanks again for all your help.

(How did this post end up being so long?)

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I know about two that you asked about-- my daughter went to Yale (2015 graduation) and my son is a senior at Swarthmore now (and I went there as well when dinosaurs roamed the earth).

Re: New Haven. I’m a suburban girl, so take this as you like, but I really like NH, at least the part around Yale. But it is not a big city experience. It has nice restaurants, is pretty, feels safe. Of course you may see homeless people at New Haven Green (which is really right in the middle of “Yale”) but all in all it’s a comfortable small city. My daughter loved it and now lives in another “small city” (Cambridge MA). It does not “suck” in my opinion. You should probably visit to get the feel for yourself.

Re: Swarthmore. I really don’t get the “competitive” thing that I keep hearing about. I didn’t feel it back in the 80s and my son doesn’t say anything about that now. I think the students like to push themselves, and perhaps that leads to a lot of “out-complaining” each other, but my son (a double-major in CS and Engineering-- so not your interests!) has time to tutor (for $) and go on all-day hiking trips with the outdoors club he’s involved with. The train to Philly is incredibly convenient (station essentially on campus, a 30 minute ride).

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@donnaleighg That’s comforting to hear about New Haven. Maybe I’ve just watched too much Harvard war propaganda, haha.

Also thanks for your comment about Swarthmore; that’s what I was hoping for. Also nice to hear how easy it is to get into Philly. I’m a suburbs girl too and I don’t think I could deal with not having easy access into the city centre.

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WashU may give the vibe that it is focused on pre-med. I would say close to 2/3 of the freshman class in Arts and Sciences have that interest. Although I think the school doesn’t try to deliberately make preprofessional programs a prime emphasis, some potential students may feel otherwise. The school has one of the finest on-campus art museums (Kemper Art Museum).

My son is considering a double major (history and biology) and has taken an unusual class called Art of Medicine-it takes into account how art, philosophy, and literature have influcenced medicine throughout the ages. Not a traditional pre-med class at all. He’s not into classical art and literature but somehow got an A in the class. There is a lot of discussion and writing in the class that makes things interesting even for kids more interested in the sciences.

The school does have majors in Classics and Romance languages that might pique your interest. Again, a visit is the best way to determine school fit.

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Carleton has the intellectual vibe that you are seeking along with a very down to earth student body. However, it is not in a big city atmosphere. The town of Northfield sizewise is 20k. It is also home to St. Olaf. The distance to Minneapolis (a big city) is 30-40 minutes. One thing to consider regarding LAC’s (which are often in more rural locations) is that they bring everything to you i.e. speakers, entertainment etc…so you don’t need to travel to the city to find things to do. That said, if what you are looking for in being in a city environment is a wide variety of restaurants/shopping then Carleton (or other LACs in more rural locations) would not be for you.

Full disclosure…I currently have a S at Carleton. He tells me that in terms of activities on campus, that there are many options, and that the only way someone could possibly do them all is if they didn’t attend class. I suggest taking a look at the schools calendar of events to get an idea of what the colleges offer in terms of activities.

Carleton would be a great choice for Philosophy.

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Re: WashU - it’s an excellent school, and (disclaimer) my impressions are all secondhand, so definitely form your own impressions. But what struck me when my d was considering it was that it is moderately Greek-heavy (about 40% participate), not as racially/culturally diverse as most similarly-elite colleges, and even less economically diverse, ranking #2 in the nation (after Colorado College) in median family income. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/washington-university-in-st-louis None of this is to say that there isn’t “life of the mind” to be had there; but my impression is that it’s quite pre-professional (not just pre-med, but also business, art & design, etc. etc… but the common thread is a career orientation vs. “knowledge for its own sake”) and that students who also enjoy a relatively conventional upper-class social experience are happiest there, whereas students who are looking for “nerd culture” can be disappointed. (I’ve heard more specifically about the lack of STEM-type nerd culture, which doesn’t necessarily mean that humanities-focused intellectualism is as hard to find - I haven’t heard much one way or the other about that.) One of my kids weighed WashU vs. Rice and UChicago, and preferred the egalitarian Residential College systems and relatively “nerdy” student bodies at the other two. (And UChicago tends more toward pure intellectualism than Rice does.) But, YMMV - I think you would be farther out on the bell curve at WashU than at UChicago or Swarthmore, but that doesn’t mean you couldn’t find your people and be happy, and there’s certainly nothing lacking about the academic programs. I would just urge you to visit and assess the “vibe” for yourself.

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I wouldn’t completely rule out Middlebury-you can drive to either Boston or Montreal in half a day for the weekend if you want the big city vibe.

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This is my impression, too, of WashU. It’s chock-full of upper-middle-class and upper class students. When I visited it seemed overly manicured. Also, I don’t like the idea that some dorms are more expensive than others, separating those who are on a budget from those who want and are willing to pay for the “best” dorms. One last thing I didn’t like: The dining halls are not all-inclusive. You swipe for each item you select. Want the meat loaf? Swipe. Green beans? Swipe. A cookie? Swipe.

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Pomona and Scripps are an hour train ride into the heart of LA, which makes for easy weekends trips. They also have a zip-car service on campus for those times when you want a car (to the beach!). The town of Claremont is cute with some very good restaurants. The area surrounding Claremont is kind of uninspiring though.

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I would suggest if at all possible to visit Rice. The rice vive is nerdy but fun . It is not as STEMy as you think. It has one of the best undergraduate Architecture schools in the country and it also has an excellent music school. And Houston is so much more wonderful a place to be in February then Connecticut.

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From all that is posted, it sounds like OP can and will be full-pay. If that is not the case,I see no discussion about merit or FAid for international students.

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She already said she’s full pay.