The proponents of big fish in small ponds speak of the advantages in terms of undergraduate research opportunities, access to relevant on-campus jobs, connections for internships and co-ops, etc. However, it’s unrealistic to say that a big pond is Big State U while a small pond is a small liberal arts college since Big State U’s Classics Department might only have 5 majors a year while the small liberal arts college might have 200 biology grads a year. Thus, the pond size of the major seems to be quite important.
My question is, what are the best methods to find that right-size pond? Ratio of the department’s faculty to number of students? An overall number of students (i.e. no more than 20, regardless of faculty)? Other considerations? And how small is too small? There’s the lack of learning from one’s peers and getting other perspectives if there are too few other students, and there’s a definite danger of a major being eliminated if there’s not enough demand.
My daughter was at a flagship (although a small one) but in a small department, history. She definitely knew all her profs (good) and most of the other students. She got good recommendations for grad school, some department scholarship money, could easily bump non-majors for priority registration. One limiting factor was the number of courses offered each semester. Some courses were only offered every other year and if you missed it (semester abroad, course conflict, prof gone that semester) you probably couldn’t take that course (the bad). That is especially important in sequencing courses.
One of the schools my other daughter looked at was very small (1200 students). The physics department only had 5 professors listed, the math department 6. What if you don’t like a prof? What if a prof gets sick for a few weeks in a semester? We just felt that was too small.
This is a bit challenging to determine at SLACs, IMO. Most do not have students declare a major until the spring of sophomore year. Yes, they publish the number of degrees awarded per major each year but that number may or may not hold true by the time a student is getting ready to declare.
The best way to find this is to do your research. Look at the schools’ websites and info sessions. If possible, talk to students who attend the schools. Ask questions on College Confidential in the forums of the schools that you are interested in attending.
Schools may quote class size and student:professor ratios but make sure those numbers for the classes you will be taking. Even then, take those numbers with a grain of salt. For example, USNWR says, " The student-faculty ratio at University of California–Berkeley is 19:1, and the school has 54.7% of its classes with fewer than 20 students." In this case, does “class” refer to lecture or does it also include labs and discussion sections? A little research shows that most Berkeley lectures are in the 100-500 range. Berkeley’s largest lecture hall holds 730 people and its largest class has over 2000 students.
When you narrow down a department at a particular school, look up the professors in the department on Rate My Professor. As in the example above, if there are 6 professors and 3 are duds (<3 IMO), that may not make for a great experience regardless of class size. Your peers also make a difference as you will be doing group projects and labs with these people. If there are 30 students in your major/year and you have every class with some permutation of the same 30 students, that may get old.
One can be a big fish at a large school. Look for honors programs and scholarship opportunities that have benefits in addition to $$ (early class selection, special housing, honors seminar courses, etc). As far as UG research opportunities, relevant on-campus jobs, internships, etc., both of my kids attended schools with over 20K students. Both did research. One had a relevant on-campus job. The other didn’t want to work during the school year. One applied for and received many internship opportunities. The other wanted to lifeguard and take summer classes. Bottom line is that no one is going to take a test, turn in applications or attend an interview for you. Your journey is what you make of it.
A lot of kids don’t know their major going into college, so this would be hard to do. I guess if you are concerned about the department being too small go for a really big school.
Also “big” and “little” are relative constructs - who is making the judgement is a key variable. A 30 student cohort might get old- or it might be plenty big enough! One of the Collegekids was perfectly happy in an LAC with just 18 graduating seniors in her major. There are other variables to consider: aside from the major cohort, students typically have an EC cohort, and frequently a housing cohort.
National Universities need to be further divided into Private or Public, and, if public, whether or not an Honors College is available to the student.
Typically, especially on CC, LAC enthusiasts focus on Selective LACs and compare then to large public universities while ignoring their Honors Colleges and ignoring Private National Universities.
Private National Universities are usually the US News top 20 ranked National Universities.
If interested in research, National Universities’ funding for research is exponentially greater than the tiny amounts available at SLACs.
The top 20 or so ranked Private National Universities often have large introductory classes in popular subjects and small classes thereafter. Research opportunities are available to all students who desire to do research, but the paid research positions are mostly held by graduate students. Overall National Universities have superior resources available for research.
Compare the student to faculty ratio at the top 20 Private National Universities to the top 20 LACs,and compare the percentage of classes with fewer than 20 students. Both are favorable for the top 20 Private National Universities.
If comparing a Public National University to a SLAC, make sure to investigate the Honors College or Honors Program at the Public National University.
Context matters for a major. I was a Classics major and indeed- some of my classes were very, very small. But there were students in some classes who were Religious Studies majors, students in Art History, students in Comparative Literature, students who had created their own majors in Egyptology/Archaeology/Ancient History. Also grad students- Greek, Latin, Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic- students come in to a doctorate program in Religious Studies and will have one but not a second language and depending on the geography, timeframe, etc. of their doctoral program may need to get up to speed quickly.
So no- in my major, I didn’t have lectures of 750 people. But just looking at the number of Classics majors every year doesn’t tell you how many students are enrolled in a class on “The influence of Classical Architecture on Brutalism” (I just made that up) which could be a class in the Art History department…
Also- some of the biggest classes are big for a reason. Superstar professors- both incredible scholars and incredible teachers- often attract huge crowds. One of the biggest classes I took was a Shakespeare class- hundreds of kids enrolled, and people sitting on the floors, in the hallway by an open door, shoved into corners of the lecture hall. Every lecture was like watching Sir Lawrence Olivier deconstruct Hamlet-- no matter what your major, at some point, everyone attended at least one of the lecture/performances just because the experience was so immersive and extraordinary. I would have hated to have missed the experience because I needed to be the big fish!
Also- an Econ class. Taught by a professor who was an economic policy advisor to several presidents on both sides of the political aisle. Standing room only; everyone knew he was close to retirement. He could connect the dots like nobody I’ve ever heard since…
“Too small” may be a function of faculty and course offerings – if there are too few faculty to cover all subareas of the subject typically offered as upper level (core and elective) courses in the major, or if the upper level courses are offered too infrequently, that may qualify as “too small”.
A million years ago I majored in a a very small major at a very small school. It was fine, I learned a lot, my professors were good even if there were just a few of them (I certainly knew them well after multiple classes with each!), and I had friends across many majors. I don’t think the size of the major is that important - more important is the size of the school overall and how that fits the specific student. I would not have liked having friends that all majored in the same subject as me - I loved having friends whose academic interests spanned the gamut.
Agreeing, but again noting that it varies by student: for a student who arrives already at a very high level (say, Math or Physics) that can be a seriously important metric; for a student who arrives with more typical levels of HS prep it’s much less likely to be a serious issue (at least at the SLACs).
It does seem that “typical levels of HS prep” on these forums is skewed toward being highly advanced in math, as shown by the threads wondering if calculus as a high school senior is “behind in math” and what is the best way to accelerate beyond that, even though that is unrepresentative of high school and college students overall.
How much breadth of offerings matters can also depend on the major. Some majors have a wide range of subareas (e.g. history, biology), so the minimum department size to get a good range of upper level course offerings and research areas may be larger in those subjects.
There are “second tier” musical theater programs (just to pick one example) where the top students (one male, one female) are the clear frontrunners during the Director Showcase events that the U sponsors to get their students visibility with the casting folks on Broadway, LA, etc. There are many “now famous” performers who admit that had they gone to one of the top tier programs they’d have been stuck in the chorus, likely never gotten the visibility they got at a smaller program which is what allowed them to launch their careers. Being the big fish in the small pond-- or top dog-- or whatever you want to call- was the propellant.
In other fields- probably doesn’t matter. And in others- being the big fish in the small pond doesn’t really help you because the pond itself is such a sorting mechanism that it is hard to launch from where you’ve been.
I also think this is a fit question and can be very individual based on personality and interest.
Also second that big doesn’t mean bad or impersonal. My favorite class as an undergrad had 1000 students and was held in a concert hall. The prof was amazing and there was always a wait list to get into his class.
Thank you all for your responses; it has definitely been good reading. Looking at the number of faculty and the frequency of upper-level courses being offered has been a good indicator to lop off some programs from serious consideration (i.e. when there’s only two faculty members in a department) or when classes of interest are only offered “occasionally.”
I haven’t looked at ratemyprofs though when we get more serious about the college search, that will certainly be a resource to check out. My concern would be that professors, in part, are rewarded for giving the easy “A” rather than necessarily for the strength and rigor of their instruction. But hopefully the fabulous and rigorous teachers are rewarded on a site like that as well.
I was looking at a flagship university’s architecture program and it limits each cohort to 45 students. I’d be interested to find out if that cohort is in classes of 45 going through the phases of their education (including the upper-level classes) or whether they end up breaking that into two or three sections. Obviously that would be a school-specific question. But I’ve found it interesting how college has changed in the last 20-odd years. Back then it seemed as though maybe 5-7% of classes were big lectures and after that it shrunk down. But now a number of flagship/well-known publics have 20-25% of their classes with more than 50 people (Georgia Tech is 27.8%) and a third or fewer of their classes with less than 20 students. Makes me wonder if the OOS fees for some of those schools are worth it.
So my daughter went to 2 Lacs since she changed majors and interests. One with 1800 students and the other around 1300 students. Their professor to student ratio are 11/1 and 10 /1.
My son went to University of Michigan. Their ratio is about 15/1.
Both kids knew their professors that they wanted to. Had easy access to Professor hours. Professors actually knew their names. Both bump into professors on campus. Both had coffee etc with Professors if that opportunity arose etc…
I think there’s this myth that smaller gains you more opportunities. Both mine did research. Both got grants for things they wanted to do on campus. Both had access to excellent learning centers, help sessions. Etc etc…
At Michigan about 60% of classes are around 20-25 years students. Sure first year Chem and psychology are large but not as big as some would think. 80% of classes have less then 50 students and only 10% have more then 100.
To me it’s up to the students to make their opportunities not up to the schools.
I think trying to game this risks vastly overthinking this choice.
I’m not saying that I wouldn’t consider the number of majors in a department before choosing one, but access to research opportunities and relevant jobs is a product of how many of those kinds of opportunities there are as much as the number of students. The overall type of students matter, too. If you intend to get a PhD in education but you go to a large state school, it doesn’t matter if there are 700 education majors, because the odds are very good that 670 of them are intending to be K-12 teachers - so you won’t be competing with them for research opportunities on campus.
I went to a small liberal arts college with a department that had somewhere between 7 to 10 professors. College students only take a fraction of their courses in their major, and sometimes courses are taught by adjuncts, lecturers, visiting professors, or professors in other departments. If you don’t like a prof…then you just take the class and do well? We all have to interact with people we don’t like in our lives. What if a prof gets sick for a few weeks? What if the departmental building burns down and they have no classrooms? I mean…anything could happen; the department would figure it out when the time came. They’d get a mid-semester replacement, or they’d work together to cover classes. This could also happen at a large university with a large faculty - having a larger faculty doesn’t necessarily mean being more robust against accidents (once schedules are set having more faculty doesn’t necessarily mean a professor is more likely to swoop in and cover the class…they have their own classes to teach.)
It is true that if a course is offered every other year and you miss it, you could miss out. It’s also very true that if a professor leaves, a popular course could leave with them. Those are all real downsides to going to a smaller department. Personally, I think only one or two classes I wanted to take this happened with (and they weren’t in my department); in both cases I took something else equally interesting.