<p>More ad hominem attacks from the liberals, surprising.</p>
<p>Your attack that insinuates the Palins are in big oil's coffers because her husband works there. is dumb.</p>
<p>Pugfug, is "Yeah ok, whatever." a concession that you agree with me and are dismissing it's importance or is it your way of saying you have no response?</p>
<p>As for Obama's achievements, I'll think you'll find that one man's achievement is another man's blunder, so I'm not sure I see the point in engaging in what would be an argument of whose interpretation of achievement is correct. Certainly we can agree that liberals and conservatives don't share many goals?</p>
<p>^I never said Palin is is "big oil's coffer" but rather that her husband probably had to guide her step by step on how she should go about "taking down" big oil companies. </p>
<p>And you're one to talk about ad hominem attacks. You've attacked Obama plenty of times because of his background. </p>
<p>Hypocritical conservatives.</p>
<p>Mike, I said yeah whatever because you accused her of being in bed with big oil without any kind of factual basis. As someone that has consistently supported my claims with actual facts, links, and reasoning, it is absurd that you accuse me of ad hominem attacks. </p>
<p>I'm not sure what part of Obama's background that I bring up that you don't like. His relations with Rezko, Ayers, or Wright? Those relations have significant implications to his judgment. </p>
<p>What happens with Sarah's family doesn't.</p>
<p>pugfug, where did I say she was in bed with big oil? I simply said she didn't "take on big oil" by giving tax rebates. It was a very specific rebuttal, and I provided a source, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Also, where did I accuse you of ad hominem attacks? Post #22 doesn't accuse you, and I haven't addressed you anywhere else so...</p>
<p>*it is absurd that you accuse me of ad hominem attacks. *</p>
<p>Then can you explain this quote? Obama traveled around the world and went to fancy schools</p>
<p>You've used that line multiple times to insinuate that Obama's personal history is "fluffed" and not humble like that of Palin when in fact he's had the most humble beginnings out of all the candidates.</p>
<p>I am so sad about John McCain. Since he got slimed in SC by Rove/Bush in 2000 he hasnt been the same since. Bless his heart.</p>
<p>That's really rich. I have no sympathy for a man that's lived in Hawaii, Chicago, Indonesia, and went to Columbia and became a lawyer. There's nothing to be against such a privileged life, I just don't see it as very inspirational.</p>
<p>BARACK</a> OBAMA: The not-so-simple story of Barack Obama's youth -- chicagotribune.com</p>
<p>Yeah, really humble life he's got there.</p>
<p>Mike, I've provided you with sources where she didn't give into big oil. Heck, she's raised their taxes (although a smart plan), and the rouse is still, wahh big oil!</p>
<p>'You</a> Are a Pathetic Human Being, and You Should Be Ashamed of Yourself' | NewsBusters.org
Democrats</a> Don Fowler, Michael Moore cheer Gustav - Crunchy Con</p>
<p>Doctor, tell me about the McCain you don't like. Tell me. Was he being mean to Obama when he compared his celebrity to Britney's? :D</p>
<p>Pugfug, do you not understand? You said I claimed she was in bed with big oil. You claimed that I accused you of ad hominem attacks. Where's your evidence? Because if you have none, then I am telling you those are ad hominem attacks. You are attributing statements to me that I didn't make.</p>
<p>*I have no sympathy for a man that's lived in Hawaii, Chicago, Indonesia, and went to Columbia and became a lawyer. There's nothing to be against such a privileged life, I just don't see it as very inspirational.
*</p>
<p>You're very ignorant, aren't you? I'm going to copy and paste my response in another thread: </p>
<p>*What, so you're criticizing him for living the American dream? Obama grew up working class with only his mother (since his father abandoned them). His mother then remarried and the family moved to Indonesia (one of the poorest countries out there) where he went to normal schools. He then went back to the US by himself to live with his grandparents while his mother remained in Indonesia.</p>
<p>He's had a rough life, more difficult than Palin and much much more difficult than old-money McCain (who needed daddy's help to get into the Naval Academy and still graduated in the bottom 1% of his class... ). But despite his hardships growing up, he was still able to graduate from both Columbia and Harvard Law School of his own accord. He worked to get where he is today. Do you think he was handed a free ride to Columbia and HLS? He had to push himself to achieve his goals.</p>
<p>And don't forget he's Black too. So that means he's also had to face a lot of racism (especially since his mother was White).</p>
<p>So please, don't throw this whole "Palin has humble beginnings" crap at Obama. Obama has had a much more turbulent life and yet he was still able to achieve more (academically and politically) than she ever will.*</p>
<p>And besides--</p>
<p>Palin: Biden
MCCAIN: OBAMA</p>
<p>Palin:Obama is comparing apples to oranges. Now who wants to talk about McCain's "humble" beginnings? LMAO.</p>
<p>Pugfug, do you not understand? You said I claimed she was in bed with big oil. You claimed that I accused you of ad hominem attacks. You are attributing statements to me that I didn't make.</p>
<p>Mike, you should read the whole thread and not just Pugfug's posts. He was talking about me...</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>He did begin the paragraph with my name, so I'm going to operate under the assumption that he was referring to me until he says otherwise.</p>
<p>Mike, whoever, I'm sorry if I called you out. Focus on the issues please and stop taking emotional offense.</p>
<p>Hippo, I have no sympathy for ivy leaguers. The intellectual types aren't exactly symbols of workers. It's really funny that you argue that Obama's worked to where he is. Lawyers, they've toiled so hard to where they are. I think it's rich.</p>
<p>Has he worked to where he is? He got in the State Senate by way of the political machine and technicalities (Alice Palmer). He had Axelrod micromanage the primaries into a situation where although Clinton won the popular vote in Nevada, Obama got more delegates. So he won by the "rules" but yeah, what a hard worker. He now has Biden by his side showing him the foreign policy ropes just like Alice Palmer (his mentor/"friend" that he sued off the ballot)</p>
<p>Lol, pugfug, you flatter yourself if you think you could emotionally offend me. To focus on the issues we have to remain civil and not resort to false statements, such as the two I pointed out. I don't mind being called out, but I just wish you could do so with things I've actually said. If we can't follow these simple rules, how are we supposed to debate?</p>
<p>
[quote]
what a hard worker.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And another ad hominem attack.</p>
<p>Homework time.</p>
<p>Someone got mad and said it was ad hominem to refer to Obama was stupid. What do you want me to say, he lacks the basic knowledge and judgment needed to be president? That's too long :)</p>
<p>Mike, look up the word ad hominem.</p>
<p>I called someone out because they accused Sarah of not attacking big oil or something along those lines because Todd works for an oil company. There is no logical, factually based argument there, it was completely ad hominem.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have no sympathy for ivy leaguers. The intellectual types aren't exactly symbols of workers. It's really funny that you argue that Obama's worked to where he is. Lawyers, they've toiled so hard to where they are. I think it's rich.
[/quote]
What are you even trying to say? Do YOU know what you're trying to say? I sure don't. From what I can gather you're saying that it's really easy to get into ivy league schools and easy to become a successful lawyer.</p>
<p>An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.</p>
<p>Isn't calling someone stupid "replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic(stupid) or belief of the person(Obama) making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim?"</p>
<p>I can't see how that isn't an ad hominem attack, but whatever you say.</p>
<p>Pugfug, you think you have me pegged, but really you're sadly mistaken. I have no horse in this race; I can't even vote. I dislike some of Obama's policies just as much as some of McCain's. I was for Guliani. But what the hell, if it makes you feel better, I'm infuriated! How dare you insult my Obama!</p>
<p>P.S. ad hominem is two words. :D (You see how ridiculous this looks after every post?)</p>
<p>Hippo, I have no sympathy for ivy leaguers. The intellectual types aren't exactly symbols of workers.</p>
<p>Wow. Jealous much? I guess the fact that Obama is literally the American dream doesn't phase you at all, huh? </p>
<p>Obama had much more meager beginnings (working class, lived in Indonesia-an incredibly poor country) than Palin/McCain and has had difficult family issues to deal with (father abandonment, had to live with grandparents, etc).</p>
<p>It's amazing that he was able to send himself to Columbia and Harvard. He actually earned it unlike people like Bush who get in byfamily connections (and this is before the widespread use of AA). </p>
<p>As I've said, Obama is the American dream (meager beginnings=>hard work=>rewards) and if you can't sympathize with him for that, then you're just in denial of the truth. People shouldn't bash Obama simply for being an "ivy-leaguer," he earned it.</p>