Follow-up to ABC 20/20 Tonight: Stupid in America

Parent Cafe
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<p>As a devoted member of NYSUT...and a school psychologist for 33 years, what I have to say will probably not sit right with many of you on this site. I have noticed in the past...say 20 years...a notable erosion in respect for teachers as a group. Teachers are blamed for everything....the economy goes bad, let's boycott that School Tax increase...how dare those teachers get a cost of living increase when our economy is so lousy. They can push their cars to work. "We're voting citizens and we're not gonna take it anymore!" And it must be that rotten Math teacher at the HS that my Johnny only got only a 50 on his NYS Math Regents. Of course, he never did his homework, took three weeks off to ski in Utah with his parents during the school year, not to mention NEVER suggesting to his parents that they attend any of the open houses ( too busy playing MAH JONG and racquetball anyway) I suppose it is also okay to bad mouth the teacher within earshot of their darling son. And...furthermore, why should darling precious not be able to drive his dad's BMW to the school's parking lot during his Junior year even though there is not enough spaces for even the faculty? They could take public transportation as we don't whnat to pay for their salary increases to pay for gasoline hikes. And why should he have to serve detention after school and miss religious education classes that we pay so dearly for even when he has cursed out the teacher, ratted on a few friends who might have cheated on an exam so he wouldn't get caught, or made 103 cell phone calls from the boy's bathroom during study hall. WHY???????? </p>

<p>Teachers are so MEANNNNNN! They even have the nerve of wanting to have their darling precious ranked against his friends in his gradauting high school class!!!! so, YES!!!, there perhaps may be a valedictorian that is NOT their son. And so we have dinners for the football stars with awards, the basketball trophies are proudly displayed upon entry into the school buidling, not to mention those soccer trophies!!! " My darling precious got a full ride to "Rinky Ding Univeristy" with one of those! but the VALEDICTORIAN??? Teachers want him/her recognized for all their efforts...but..but..</p>

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<p>I am a teacher. I neither support nor decry the images of my profession put forth by 20/20 because one of the lessons I truly hope my students will carry forth into life is that any statement that includes the phrase "all (supply the noun of choice) are (supply the adjective of choice)" is stereotypical and biased.</p>

<p>I am a former journalist. I neither support nor decry the attacks on ABC's 20/20 report of schools because one of the lessons I truly hope our nation will carry forth into life is that a free press is a necessary component of democracry. </p>

<p>However, even Thomas Jefferson knew that an educated electorate was necessary for a free nation to exist.</p>

<p>Here is where we must agree:<br>
This nation is shortchanging its students. Many are not being left behind; they are being left out. Our schools need to educate students for all possible productive outcomes. We seem to have drifted to a pattern of college bound or bound and gagged. There need to be other options. </p>

<p>Although we live in a culture that demands an increasingly literate, educated, computer savvy work force, we must acknowledge an inescapable fact of life: We all rely on people who work with their hands.</p>

<p>I value my electrician, plumber, hair stylist, mechanic, tree trimmer, tile man, cobbler, caterer, butcher, baker, tailor, etc. These phone numbers and addresses are a treasured part of a well-ordered life. However, I teach in a public school district that ignores these job outcomes. These trades and crafts need to be taught, and the students enrolled in such classes need classes in business math and law. </p>

<p>Teachers will tell you that we are not treated as or valued as professionals, but I can live with that. I cannot live with a system that denigrates all non-bachelor degree outcomes. Students who have skills and amibitions in other areas are left out in the cold by most of America's school districts.</p>

<p>No Child Left Behind is a joke because it ignores the individual in favor of focusing on one outcome: college. On this bulletin board the shared focus is the college experience, but how would you feel if the government rejected the concept of college and promoted only vocational programs as the best outcome for all?</p>

<p>Each child deserves the education that best serves his or her interests and ambitions.</p>

<p>My earnings would increase greatly if I had equal experience in any one of the vocational fields I have mentioned.</p>

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<p>HERE HERE. MAMACITA! Well said.....I was only responding to all the blame being cast upon the teaching profession for so many years!</p>

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<p>"Ignoring Stossel, I am still looking for an answer to the following question:</p>

<p>"Quote:
"I still haven't seen an explanation on why the European students scored higher than the American students. </p>

<p>"Do you have a theory or reason for why this happened? An ad hominem attack on Stossel does not help answer the question raised by the results of the tests."</p>

<p>Yes, I have a reason, and it has a lot in common with the reason given by momacita.</p>

<p>"This nation is shortchanging its students. Many are not being left behind; they are being left out. Our schools need to educate students for all possible productive outcomes. We seem to have drifted to a pattern of college bound or bound and gagged. There need to be other options. </p>

<p>"Although we live in a culture that demands an increasingly literate, educated, computer savvy work force, we must acknowledge an inescapable fact of life: We all rely on people who work with their hands.</p>

<p>"I value my electrician, plumber, hair stylist, mechanic, tree trimmer, tile man, cobbler, caterer, butcher, baker, tailor, etc. These phone numbers and addresses are a treasured part of a well-ordered life. However, I teach in a public school district that ignores these job outcomes. These trades and crafts need to be taught, and the students enrolled in such classes need classes in business math and law. </p>

<p>"...I cannot live with a system that denigrates all non-bachelor degree outcomes. Students who have skills and amibitions in other areas are left out in the cold by most of America's school districts.</p>

<p>"No Child Left Behind is a joke because it ignores the individual in favor of focusing on one outcome: college."</p>

<p>We Americans already had this misguided notion befor NCLB came along and now, I fear, it's getting worse. One size fits all is a disaster. Without getting into the question of vouchers for private schools, the right path for starters is to offer a variety of "right-sized" options, including some that are egg-head, some perhaps rah-rah, some that are in effect remedial, and some with a substantial vocational component.</p>

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<p>Forgive me for asking, but what exactly does the presence of absence of vocational schools have to do with the issues brought forward by John Stossel, and especially the "attacks" on the teachers? </p>

<p>FWIW, I have written several times about what I know about the system in Belgium. While my knowledge is far from exhaustive, I learned a bit from the experience of my two cousins. We all have the same age and went through VASTLY different paths. My older cousin went through what would be called a vocational or trade school after falling hopelessly behind in elementary school. His younger brother graduated early with grades that defied all scales. The system worked well, actually very well, for both of them. The trade school allowed my older cousin to overcome his earlier handicap and graduate "on time" with highly marketable skills in masonry and construction. It is a given that by the time his younger brother graduates from medical school, the older one will own his own home, drive a fancy -for Europe- car, and earn a very comfortable living. </p>

<p>However, I do not understand how the benefits of such system would transfer correctly to the United States, or eradicate the main issues that plague our PUBLIC education. The symptoms are not hard to identify, nor are the DIRECT culprits. They are the ones who fought and are still fighting tooth and nail to prevent anything that would come close to FULL accountability or school choice for parents. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, no other organization is aw detrimental to the education of children as unions like the UFT or TEA. As long as those will exist, our schools will be tarnished by corruption and mediocrity. Those organizations's sole purpose and interest are to keep their coffers full to play political games, protect their own through abject cronyism, and maintain the status quo of a feudal system. If good teachers are found guilty buy association, they only have themselves to blame. And as far are respect, people do NOT deserve respect, they EARN it ... a fact that seems to remain blatantly oblivious among teachers and school officials.</p>

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<p>"If good teachers are found guilty buy association, they only have themselves to blame. And as far are respect, people do NOT deserve respect, they EARN it ... a fact that seems to remain blatantly oblivious among teachers and school officials."</p>

<p>Wow. Anyone who can make a generalization like this really must have a chip on his/her shoulder. Guilty by association??????? I don't know what the school district is like where you went to school ... or where you get your information from. Where I live (and where I work - two different places) ... public teachers work hard - for the good of kids. We nuture them, educate them, act as surrogate parents to them, and care about them. My union supports me AND the children I teach. My union gives out scholarships to deserving students in the district I work in.<br>
In my district, teachers are accountable. Our district works hand-in-hand with our union. Sure, we have our differences, but most people do in the workforce. There is still respect. That's because we are all there for the kids.<br>
Who wrote your college recommendions, Xiggi? My kids' teachers clearly spent hours writing them - at no extra pay. Many of them write thirty or more per year. As a parent, I appreciate that. And when I, in my teacher capacity, call parents at home on Sunday nights because I can't reach them during the week ... that's appreciated too.
I'm glad I live and work where I do. Maybe it's different in California, or wherever you are. Rest assured, either way, you didn't get to where you are without at least a few good teachers along the way.<br>
No unions? Read up on the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire. Maybe a union would have been detrimental to those workers too.</p>

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<p>These schools in Belgium are public, correct? There are jobs for teachers in several types of school? Teachers' unions can exercise whatever power they have to get good pay or whatever for their members? Parents have some say in which school a child attends?</p>

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<p>"public teachers work hard - for the good of kids. We nuture them, educate them, act as surrogate parents to them, and care about them. My union supports me AND the children I teach"</p>

<p>I love teachers. Most of my recent ancestors were teachers. I wished we paid them more and that it was a more attractive profession for talented people. But, I don't trust them (or, much worse, education schools) to design a school system. cf. Belgium.</p>

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<p>Twinmom, I make no apologies for what I wrote, except for the unfortunate typos in my last sentences. The guilty by association relates to good teachers being painted with the same colors and broad strokes as the number of teachers that are not worthy of our respect. It is given that evrytime somone points the fingers at the lazy or abusive teachers, a barrage of indignation springs up in the defense of good teachers and the typical accusation of having a chip on the shoulder. </p>

<p>On the subject of recommendations, I did not have the slightest problem in obtaining them, nor did I have the slightest hesitation to consider it a favor. I did not consider that is what part of their job. However, it is not because I happen to have the utmost respect for most of the teachers I had that I am unable to discuss the difference between the good and the bad ones. I am not quite sure why parents seem to believe that students spend 12 years in elementary through high school but remain oblivious to what surrounds them. Do you believe that we are unable to form opinions or unable to appreciate the complexity of the issues? And should we be blamed for exposing what is bad in a system we are still part of? </p>

<p>As far as getting information, it is exactly the pursuit of information that goes beyond provincial boundaries that allows me to find the confirmation of my worst suspicions. I'd more than happy to compare our mutual sources of information.</p>

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<p>If John Stossel wanted to see true corruption, he wouldn't have look further than his vanity mirror. How many journalists - and I use that term loosely for John- could produce a hit piece based not merely on twisted facts but flat-out lies.

[quote]
I am writing to inform you or our conclusion that ABC News does not possess, and has never possessed, the test results Mr. Stossel reported. The reason is simple: we have confirmed with the experts ABC hired for its organic food story that the pesticide test results in question do not exist because no such laboratory tests were ever conducted for ABC News."

[/quote]
<a href="http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,6900,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,6900,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It's fortunate that Stossel is corporate sycophant, because otherwise lying might actually be considered unprofessional.</p>

<p>But I'm sorry, I'm sure he's a real visionary against those diabolical teachers and their lavish lifestyle.</p>

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<p>My source of information, Xiggi, surrounds me every day. As in every profession, there are bad apples mixed in with the bunch. </p>

<p>I cannot even grace this with any more of a reply. It is my hope that the moderators move this out of the college forum as, in my opinion, it does not belong here. Most of the parents who frequent this forum are advocates for education and the teachers who provide it. </p>

<p>I'll go back to my congratulating of parents and their children as their hard-earned successes come rolling in. And I'll continue thinking that good home-school partnerships helped to foster those successes for many of <em>our</em> CC kids. If I didn't buy into that, Xiggi, I wouldn't be able to get up and go to work every day.</p>

<p>Oh, and you might want to reread Roger Dooley's thread on courtesy in the forums. There is a difference between <em>good discussion</em> and outright rudeness and bashing.</p>

<p>So I'm off this thread and back to my regularly scheduled programming.</p>

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<p>Does anyone know where the union bigwigs send their own kids for high school? I want to focus on the bigwigs -- let's say over $100K in income, officially -- because they are the ones who can afford the choice of sending their kids to private schools.</p>

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<p>outright rudeness? I cannot even grace this with any more of a reply.</p>

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<p>I do know a union bigwig.......he sent all of his kids to Catholic school. He also told his daughter not to go into teaching because she'd never be able to earn a decent living.</p>

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<p>Leaving aside the Stossel ad hominems, this idea of vouchers has been around for quite a while. The only argument I have ever heard against the idea is that "it will take money away from public schools." I am not sure why this is a principled argument. First, it assumes people will decide not to use public shools. If true, they won't need the money. If not, it's a wash. Second, it assumes that elected officials will allow the demise of public schools. Why not give the voucher alternative a try? No one is suggesting that the government not provide an education for kids, it is just how it's done that's the issue. Giving it to a union-dominated bureaucracy doesn't seem to be getting the job done in many areas of the country.</p>

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<p>I'd like to know what Stossel has to say about the American public college system, which is the envy of the rest of the world. Isn't that system a government bureaucracy too?</p>

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<p>John Stossel would probably point out that our tertiary education, being based on competition and school choice, does not suffer from the same syndromes that plague our K-12. In addition, he may point out to the different funding mechanisms and the greater importance of private funds and "non-school-based" financial aid. Extending the ability to take federal or state financial assistance to the school selected by one family is not exactly a novel idea, but it would mean the end of the hegemony of one particular group.</p>

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<p>As an expat in the Netherlands for 6 years, with high school age children I understand the differences quite well.</p>

<p>In Belgium as in the Netherlands, the children are weeded out of the system through a series of tests taken in 6th, then 10-12th grades. They are much more serious about school because they have to be to go to University. Teachers have much more independence here as well. Children go to school to learn and social and athletic life are more independent of school.</p>

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<p>Xiggi, I don't agree that our higher education system is based on competition, not in the classic economic sense. I'll admit that the land-grand universities were founded to promote economic development, particularly assistance to farmers and ranchers, in their regions. Many state schools were either exclusively modeled on the idea of a classical education (such as "Mr. Jefferson's university,") or followed the example of religious orders and therefore decided to found a school.</p>

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<p>dke: <<< I do know a union bigwig.......he sent all of his kids to Catholic school. He also told his daughter not to go into teaching because she'd never be able to earn a decent living. >>></p>

<p>There was a study several years ago that showed that over 50% of public school teachers sent their <em>own</em> kids to private/parochial schools. It was embarassing for the unions.</p>

<p>omigod: I just realized that all 3 of my teacher/sisters-in-laws send their kids to Catholic schools.....</p>