Football...crazy advantage

<p>I understand what a meritocracy is and I understand that being good at sports takes talent/hardwork. I just don’t think it’s fair that the only merit that sees such a lax in academic standards is men’s football & lacrosse. </p>

<p>there are certainly other ways to be succesful than having a high GPA or being a good athlete, and I am not saying that being a good athlete should not help a candidate’s application – it certainly should, it’s a form of success in school. But it should not be a more important factor than one’s GPA to the point where people with 4.0 GPA’s who are tri-varsity athletes are getting rejected but football stars with 3.2 GPA’s are getting accepted. I think the first person is more strongly aligned with the supposed values of most colleges. </p>

<p>and i am glad you have such a good attitude towards your fellow classmate who was also accepted to your university – but would you have such a good attitude if you were rejected and he were accepted? i am sure you will answer “yes” in this moment but it’s hard to believe that you would have such a positive attitude if life had gone otherwise, which, for many, it does.</p>

<p>Sports >>> Other clubs, comm service, etc.</p>

<p>to clarify - i think the issue is mainly at small LAC’s where about 1/3 - 1/4 of the class are recruits. At larger schools it’s much less of a problem because it’s not such a huge percent of the student body</p>

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<p>I have to disagree - I think he will survive the Princeton courseload just fine. Granted, he probably won’t get top grades, and he certainly not in a tough major such as engineering or the natural sciences. But he’ll survive and graduate. That’s because Princeton (and every other Ivy) is grade inflated to the extent that it’s practically impossible to actually flunk out. Sure, he’ll probably get mediocre grades. But he’ll still pass. </p>

<p>Granted, Princeton has taken a few steps lately to reduce the grade inflation on the high end, such that it is harder to get A’s. But they’ve done nothing to modify the low end, which means it’s almost impossible to get a failing grade. As long as you do the bare minimum of work, you’re going to get at least a C, and a C average is all you need to graduate. </p>

<p>Whether we like it or not, the truth of the matter is, by far the hardest part about getting an Ivy League degree is getting admitted in the first place. Once you’re in, just finishing the degree is not hard at all. Now, finishing the degree with a top GPA is hard, but if all you want to do is simply pass, then it’s not hard at all.</p>

<p>For those of you who are affronted by football admissions standards, you have options! There are many good schools that do not have football teams. </p>

<p>It makes no sense to complain that schools should not accept elite athletes despite their lower gpas, when that is, in fact, what they want.</p>

<p>To those of you who think life is unfair because sewing or playing the oboe won’t get you admitted to top schools with a 3.2 GPA: I can assure you that as soon as tens of thousands of people re willing to pay to watch you sew or play music 10 weekends of the year that you will get special admissions consideration as well. I know plenty of athletes who have gone into top schools with lower than average SAT’s or GPA’s and they do just fine. As posted above, the hardest part about some of these schools is just getting through the door and many who are denied admission (including non-athletes) would do just fine if given the chance. Come on, who among you thinks you couldn’t swing it at Harvard or Yale if given the chance?</p>

<p>After my experiences attending college, I can swallow quietly the moral justification of legacies and development cases, but I just cannot accept the IMHO excessive role sport play in University context. Of course, in the present scenario, if one top university decided to scrap competitive athlete recruiting altogether (e.g., athletes would be selected among students admitted without any kind of preference or financial aid given as reward of their athletic abilities), its standing would drop and a lot of image and brand damage would happen.</p>

<p>As a system, however, I can barely accept the idea that competitive sport is tied to the university core experience. Nice dorms improve attractiveness of colleges and provide better accommodation so happier and better-lodged students perform better. Gyms, tracks and climbing walls affect overall students’ health. Extensive and low-cost parking expands catchment area and improves students’ mobility. Investment in labs, classroom, top professors etc. justify themselves for obvious reasons. Yet Varsity sport is, usually, a money-loser activity for universities, especially in spite of NCAA requirements of “x” level-“y” sports to be offered at a given school. It’s big business for cable channels, NCAA’s partners and, because ever institution invest in sport, no single university could turn its face to varsity without jeopardizing its ability to recruit students and attract donors.</p>

<p>Still, I think that competitive sport doesn’t belong to college scene. It could be managed as junior leagues or whatsoever, but as it is done nowadays, it’s like top universities where paying good players by means of conferring them a high-valued degree they can use later on the road.</p>

<p>What made me feel even worse about it were the privileges athletes had when it came to exams, due assignments etc. A student who suffered a car accident would be required do take an excused leave of absence if they were to miss more than 3 full weeks of classes. Many professors played it very hard the excused absence game, requiring students whose close relatives died to turn late work sometimes no later than 3 weekdays after funerals. An athlete could get himself easily off the hook at discretion of Dean. If they attended courses requiring large share of grade-worth work to be done in groups and/or during classes, professors were OBLIGED to provide “accommodation” for their particular schedule needs. They were waived from certain schedule, major and section selection rules if they prove to be an “excessive burden” to training – a privilege none student club had -. If one goes to professors’ forum in Chronicle of Higher Ed (their version of CC), one could read about pressure some Deans to on them to be “considerate” of the unique talent of athletes (= giving them an easier path to C’s and B’s)</p>

<p>Imagine if other academic irrelevant activity were taken over by college, let’s say, fashion shows. Colleges could become the biggest and more important players in young faces walking on the catwalk. Fashion weeks would be held in the halls, top models would be revealed at Ivy’s shows, and very good looking girls and boys would have huge advantage at admissions like athletes have today. Catwalk young models (as athletes) work their way very hard, have to exercise dozens hours per week, restrain themselves of much of pleasure food average HS student flocks to etc. However, if they want to capitalize on their combination of genetic talent + huge effort, they sign with a model or casting agency, not with Yale Admission Committee.</p>

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I don’t completely agree. I put a lot of work into what I do as an athlete and yet I’m probably going to be academically qualified for HYPSM even without my status as an athlete. I was surprised when going to honors showcases for my sport (a big but rather non-revenue sport BTW) and realizing that “honors” essentially meant having an 1800+ SAT. Even at some of the D3 schools I’m looking at, schools where coaches supposedly have almost no clout, a 31 ACT will suffice. And these schools are top LACs where acceptance rates are in the teens. It’s just disappointing how few recruited athletes are truly academically qualified.</p>

<p>But then again, I look at how Caltech is doing in its athletics and then I begin to understand why schools have to substantially drop their academic standards in order to be competitive. It’s kind of a reality all schools need to face. No school, no matter how nerdy, should be faced with the nightmare of a 207-game losing streak. :(</p>

<p>As the parent of two students who will surely not be recruited athletes I can say that I’m fine with the process as it exists today. I frankly don’t understand the hubbub this issue continually receives.</p>

<p>First, there are myriad studies that demonstrate that high achieving athletes tend to achieve outside of athletics - this issue has been studied to death and the results are always the same. So it is completely rational that a highly selective school might place special significance on that aspect of a prospective student’s application. I find it amusing that some people think that a 3.5 student with an 1800 SAT wouldn’t be able “to do the work” at an elite school. CalTech or MIT, sure, but anywhere where you can get a B.A. is not going to be beyond the capability of a B+, 75th percentile standardized test taker. Sure these students are not likely to be college valedictorians, but they’ll pass and get great educations in the process.</p>

<p>Also, I’ll take issue with the oboe comment above. Sure, standing alone, the oboe won’t get you into a highly selective school, right up until the orchestra director shows up at admissions and says, “my oboe graduated. We only had one and now she’s gone. I must have an oboe in the orchestra and our orchestra is a vital part of our university.” We all know what happens then. The admissions office looks for the best qualified student who also can play the oboe. And if the conductor says, “Janie from Wichita visited us and wants to be in the orchestra, and I’ve heard her play the oboe and I want her,” Janie’s as good as in - just like the linebacker. What seems to make people bristle is that every year, the Ivies will all admit 20-30 football players under this scenario but only one french horn. What that thinking fails to take into account is that just as there will be several athletes admitted this way, there will be musicians, debaters, writers, actors, singers, dancers, etc. who all sneak into a great school with less than median GPA’s and SAT’s.</p>

<p>Athletes get preference. That’s our society. And our society has determined that we want things that way. The post-education performance of NCAA athletes validates that preference. So what exactly are we arguing about?</p>

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<p>IMHO, we are arguing about the fact that while instrumentists, singers and other students with rare and undisputed talent still go to classes, get tough courses in their majors (I cannot imagine a music B.A. being “easy” when it comes to advanced courses), and abide by the general rules we all do. Athletes get more “accomodation” than disabled students, a lot of waivers, some schools even waive Gen. Ed. requisites to allow then to attain upperclassmen standard.</p>

<p>I know a guy going to Dartmouth on a full football scholarship. The first time I met him, I legitimately thought he was “slow.”</p>

<p>Hookem, just a head’s up - the Ivy league does not give athletic scholarships, they can only recieve financial aid, but with added restrictions - see below:</p>

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<p>This is why you will never see Harvard playing the Longhorns in a bowl game :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Ivy caliber athletes bring excellent character qualities to the college, as well as sports prowess: 1. Time management 2. Teamwork attitude 3. Perserverence 4. Mental endurance 5. Ability to cope with high stress and disappointment 4. Ability to get the job done without whining 5. Ability to study while on noisy buses, at long meets, matches and games 6. Ability to study while exhausted, and cope with pain from injuries. </p>

<p>Once college graduation comes, many companies hire athletes for these qualities, and do not care about the almighty SAT scores earned as a 17 year old. </p>

<p>The physical toll sports takes on the body is unimaginable to a non-athlete. Three hour daily practices, plus weightlifting, plus travel, then game/match/meet days are the norm. Ivy athletes turn down money at lesser schools for an Ivy education, and once on campus sacrifice many extracurricular and social opportunities for the team.</p>

<p>^ fauve, I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. The guy I know has an 1800-ish SAT score, had a completely average GPA and class rank at a giant public school, at which he only took 2 AP classes total, can’t speak intelligently to save his life, and gets _ _ _ _-faced 3 nights a week. Don’t hype up sports as if all varsity athletes that get into Ivies are great. They’re not.</p>

<p>and good catch, ag, that’s just the way he phrases it, so I guess he got a lot of free grant money, and he assumed it was for varsity football. I was never familiar with their athletic FinAid policies, since I never had to worry about it :p</p>

<p>I’m personally happy with the way admissions is run at my school in regards to athletes. I found most of the people who disagree with the boost are either academically strong high school students applying to college, or people who went to a college that drastically lowered the bar for athletes.</p>

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<p>Just wanted to point out that an 1800 SAT score, assuming it was composed of 3 600’s, would rank in the 79th (CR), 75th (M) and 82nd (W) percentiles nationally. He is not average, he is above-average. Also, some AP classes are very difficult. I read somewhere on these boards that the average Ivy admit has only taken 4 APs, total. That means that like the young man you are referring to, there are probably a fair number who have only taken 2.</p>

<p>Btw, a 31 ACT composite score (referenced in post 48) ranks in the 98th percentile nationally.</p>

<p>^ I don’t give a flying rat’s ass about national averages. They have zero relevance in this discussion. None. Zilch. Know why? Because the American educational system is godawful, and having a national average of 1500ish is godawful, too. Compare an 1800 to the percentiles AT DARTMOUTH, because that’s ALL THAT MATTERS, and an 1800 is woefully below even the bottom 25% at Dartmouth. </p>

<p>And it’s not just the SAT scores. Obviously, I am 100% in favor of admitting a prodigy from Bulgaria or Kenya, who never even saw a practice question before taking the test. If an applicant makes up for a really low score in other ways, fine. The point is, he’s average in EVERY respect. The point is, when I spoke to him in person, he sounded unintelligent.</p>

<p>The point is, his selection may have precluded the acceptance of one more budding genius, one more future Pulitzer winner, one more future President of the United States. It disgusts me.</p>

<p>Don’t worry there will be academically worse football players on Duke’s team. Please tell them that they took the spot of someone far more deserving. Don’t forget to add that you think it’s disgusting. Tell me what happens ;)</p>

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<p>While you have made it clear you don’t care, I’m going to say it anyway: The 1800 SAT guy’s scores would fall well within the middle 50% admitted to UCLA. Now this guy is actually starting to sound fairly impressive in my book.</p>

<p>Morsmordre, saying it to a particular football player’s face (like this guy’s) would make it PERSONAL. It would be a specific insult. I’m ticked at the system in general. It’s not the players’ fault. If I played football, I’d probably game the system, too (although my SAT score would stay the same). It’s the admissions officers I’m after, not the kids!!</p>

<p>P.S. At Duke, it’d probably be the basketball players, not the football players, that benefit most from athletic recruitment hehe ;)</p>

<p>Bay, why did you just bring up UCLA??? It’s not even close to Dartmouth haha</p>