Football - Ivy, NESCAC, and other Top D3s from a Recruit

My recruitment experience is wrapping up. I received a lot of support from this forum. I just wanted to relay a lot of my experience, hopefully to help future generations. In the style of @njfbmom 's post: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/athletic-recruits/1840494-football-recruiting-ivy-nescac-patriot-league-other-diii.html

I’ll try not to repeat much of what she said, I’ll put my background at the end as I’m sure folks want to hear the info asap. I acknowledge the recruitment is a huge gift so my intention isn’t to offend anybody, but I may be somewhat candid to hopefully be helpful. I apologize if any information I provide is incorrect, but I’m relaying what my understanding and experience is.

2 notes of overall advice not mentioned in @njfbmom 's post.
a. As of this year, SAT 2 Subject Tests are rarely required short of 3-4 places, but they were highly helpful. Coaches and admissions officers seemed impressed, and they gave me a bump in the Academic Index.
b. Recruiting coaches (position coaches) may leave the college during the recruitment process after the initial contact, and it’s possible nobody will tell you. Yet the college may still want to recruit you. In fact, the new coach may have even more interest or be a coach that was recruiting you at his previous college. I had this experience multiple times. So loss of contact doesn’t always mean loss of interest as it feels were sometimes taught to believe here.

Here’s feedback and experience by college.

Ivy–ultimately I received no offer. I’m Band 3 academically. Each one took interest to varying degrees. All invited me to camps, and engaged in a lot of email exchange beyond the generic copy-paste “come to our camp” notes. I went to only 2 camps. By end of camp season, no real contact anymore of any substance. Perhaps should have went to more camps, but I didn’t like the idea of all the fees and travels without a clearer sense of where I stood in advance. Perhaps that was a signal that I never was going to be a top recruit for them. Did I not get offers only because I didn’t go to camps? Or was there really never that much interest up front because they weren’t more enthusiastic?

Georgetown–same experience as Ivies, although the coaches were less active with recruitment and hosting camps

Johns Hopkins–be in touch with them before October, but they will not say much until then. I got the same feedback as @njfbmom about the 30 ACT, so I was given strong consideration as a recruit because I had that. However, at the pre-read, admissions was very unhappy with the C from freshman year, so my support continued but became slightly more tempered. Lowered me on the boards a little.

Carnegie Mellon–similar to Johns Hopkins but slightly more forgiving on the GPA, or at least willing to compensate with extracurriculars and SAT 2s. Requires SAT 2s.

Chicago–the coach will not truly know anything until after you submit your application, despite what he says. That means you have to do the Chicago supplement, which is a pain. However, it’s a free application. Ultimately, the finished application is basically what’s required for the pre-read. @njfbmom is correct that they do operate late, so it’s ok to miss the Early Action deadline

Union–feels like an up and coming program. Was offered merit scholarship. They’re also very organized (and generous) about financial aid pre-reads. Overhauled it’s coach staff recently, and was very impressed with them. Perhaps less well-known but how I’d envision a NESCAC, but I found it to be a place I liked much more than any NESCAC. I’m not sure NESCACs give merit scholarships but anybody who’s academically at the level of say Bowdoin-Williams-Amherst will likely receive one. Likewise, anybody at the level of Trinity-Colby-Bates but looking to study Engineering will probably be recruited and admitted. Socially, good fraternities and D1 hockey.

WUSTL–the coach will encourage you to apply if your academics are good, but I suspect he has minimal support. There’s no pre-read or slots. In fact, they don’t even start recruiting until Dec, when the Regular Decision deadline approaches. His support can help push a border-line application over at best was my sense, meaning you have to be somewhat near what WUSTL looks for in non-athletes

MIT–similar to WUSTL, except the coach is much more enthusiastic about expressing desire to help recruits and recruits before Dec. Still, I’m not sure his support will go too far for similar reasons as WUSTL’s in that no pre-read, it’s just a place that values coach support only so much, no slots etc … I’m still waiting on the admissions decision, but I’m really not counting on it. Requires SAT 2s.

Case Western–sense was similar to WUSTL in terms of coach’s ability to help–his support seems even less-- but application is at least free

Carleton and Grinnell–will factor in remaining components of application. Coaches have support

Denison and Kenyon–seem similar but I stopped the recruitment there too early to know. Coaches seemed like they may be able to help.

Macalester and Oberlin–doesn’t seem coaches have as much pull but I didn’t pursue enough to say

RPI–offers good merit aid

Harvey Mudd and Pomona–need good academics. coach didn’t even bother with me. perhaps it is also because i’m not west coast based

Washington and Lee—never received response

Rochester—coach really wants to help and seems like he can

TCNJ–very confusing recruitment process, but the coaches seem to mean very well. I can’t still tell you what actually goes on behind the scenes because it was very disorganized. In fact, at times, I think the coaches were giving me factually incorrect info or bad advice about the admissions process. As a D3 public college that’s good academically—a true goodie but rarity rarity—I think they’re just in a difficult position athletically.

NESCACs—Received a lot of interest from all, but I was really only interested in Tufts and ultimately didn’t receive the offer. Did well with the others. My take-away: they seem to be particularly huge on face-time and phone-time, but that doesn’t guarantee an offer.

I don’t want to offend anybody, but I didn’t have positive experiences with them. Experience with other D3s and Ivies was positive. NESCACs were more aggressive, which would have been good if they were transparent but yet they were much less transparent or at least more misleading. In contrast, other D3s were clear about what they can and cannot do and where I stood, and very reasonable about how much face-time or phone-time they needed of me.

I’ll provide additional info in a separate NESCAC posting.

Background: I was a Band 3 at each Ivy. (That each Ivy uses a different cut-off is a whole other topic, but the coaches hinted I squeaked by at Band 3 even at the more competitive ones like Harvard and Yale.) My ACT and SAT 2s were highly competitive, and I believe my extracurriculars and application essays were strong, but my GPA was very mediocre for top colleges, even as a football recruit. I had all B’s in major classes, 1 C freshman year, and A’s in my electives with only 2 honors classes as a senior—I come from a highly ranked public school though.

Athletically, I’m not All-State, but I’ve received a lot of honors both junior and senior year. From the feedback I got from coaches, I’d guess I was a very low D1 recruit athletically but high D3 athletically.

Also, I mainly targeted D3s because I was nervous about the D1 time commitment and only wanted a college where I’d be happy academically. By happy, I meant a place that seemed to have good opportunities, ideally the subjects I wanted to study, and I probably couldn’t get into unless I were a recruit. I didn’t contact any D2s. Only D1s were Ivy, Georgetown, and about 5 others. However, the 5 other D1s never showed interest.

Great write up - where did you end up ?

Find out what you want to truly study first and target the schools. Then see what aid you can get. My son is at an Ivy, and we are paying the full boat even though he had scholarship offers from Patriot League schools. All I can say is he loves the school, loves his teammates and is studying exactly what he wanted to study. Yes it is expensive, but if it gets him were he wants to go it will be very much worth it!

Fascinating post. From our experience, I would add this: if you are a truly exceptional athlet but your academic qualifications are not as strong, it is much easier to get in to the Ivies than to the top academic D3 schools like Chicago, Amherst or Pomona. Because of the way that the Ivies use thir academic index system, they can squeeze in a top athlete in a way that the D3 schools simply cannot. However, the flip side is that you need to be a exceptional athlete or the Ivies won’t be interested at all. The athletic competition level is high. If you are a very good but not exceptional athlete with very good academics, D3 schools will want you and the Ivies will not.

@ThankYouforHelp Thank you for reading and the compliment. At 2 colleges that are considered comparable academically, I agree with your comment that D3 places a higher premium on academics while D1 places a higher premium on athletics. This is what I observed based on my experience and the experiences of my friends.

That said, there’s some exceptions in the D3s. Union and several of the NESCACs are test optional, such as Bates and Trinity. If someone is an exceptionally strong athlete and maintained a decent GPA—often the case at some of the feeder powerhouse high schools—then it can be a very smooth ride to a top D3. Even still, it seems Union and many of the NESCACs maintain some sort of slot system akin to the Ivies with the Academic Index, so it’s still possible to get recruited with a test score of around ACT = 24.

Agreed, but that is in part due to the fact that the NESCAC has a broader range of admissions standards. Although the Ivies vary in selectivity, all of them are very selective. For the NESCAC, Amherst and Williams are as selective as Ivies, but th range is broader and at the other end, Trinity and Conn College are much less selective.

You are correct that for a couple of these schools, the test optional thing adds another twist too. However, Even if they could get admitted, I would not advise someone to go to a school like Middlebury or Bowdoin if they are getting ACT scores in the low 20s. Those schools will be very difficult and there is a real risk of struggling to keep upwith your peers.

@fb1998, I’ve been through this now three times. A lot of what you’ve written is accurate, some not so much, some surprising to me, a lot not so surprising.

what you said about Pomona and Chicago (and it applies to others as well) is true. sports helps - it ALWAYS helps if the coach is using all of their clout on you - but it barely moves the needle at some schools in some sports. but it moves it a lot at other schools in some sports.

football is its own animal, to be sure. and some sports don’t benefit you as much across the board because of the demographic of that sport. for example, every crew coach will tell you that their pull is limited in that admissions views that sport as one where compromise isn’t as required as it is for, say, football (surprise! you knew that though).

I’ve had a kid recruited by every single NESCAC school. I’ve had them recruited by many of the Liberty League and Centennial League schools, and others too.

Without a doubt, I’d say NESCAC has their **** together more than the others, and is the closest thing to the Ivy League recruiting experience we saw. They were all very transparent and professional. The crazy stuff I ran into the most was in the Centennial League and schools outside of those three leagues.

“Even still, it seems Union and many of the NESCACs maintain some sort of slot system akin to the Ivies with the Academic Index, so it’s still possible to get recruited with a test score of around ACT = 24.”

Only true at the TO schools. You won’t get in on a slot at a non-TO school with a 24. I think that would be hard even at Connecticut College or Trinity, which are lower-end schools in the NESCAC (still damn fine schools though). Also, the NESCAC, specifically Williams, Wesleyan and Amherst, invented what you’re referring to as the Band system. A band, B band, C band, etc. They got together a few years back specifically for the purpose of standardizing their recruiting practices so as to not get carried away with competition and lose sight of what those schools are all about. it works a lot like the Ivy League index system, but with different words.

I agree with @ThankYouforHelp : if you’re very elite on the athletic side, the Ivy League can wind up being a more realistic recruitment. That is Division 1, and you need athletes to compete at that level, so the coaches have more definitive room within which to operate (though admissions still runs the show in the Ivy League). Division 3 is a little more difficult, and though there are Division 1-level athletes all over the place in D3 sports, as institutions they don’t need to flex as much.

Anyway, it was interesting reading your post. Recruiting is quite the adventure. Lots of highs and lows and having to read situations with a lot less than perfect information.

One final thought: test optional does provide the coach with more flexibility, yes. after all, you can hide a bad test. but that doesn’t mean the schools are easy. there is still a whole lot of information on which to evaluate you, and w/o a test score, that’s one less data point they have, which means they are going to scrutinize the hell out of what you do submit. Rigor, for selective LACs, is the key. If you take easy classes, you’re fighting an uphill battle w/ admissions. My D’s grades were very “so so” by upper-end NESCAC standards, though she has a solid ACT score. The Wesleyan coach, who was prepared to use her top priority status on my girl (who is also a D1 recruit), said that it was a not a sure thing because of some “C” grades. But she also said that the IB rigor was huge with Wesleyan and other top LACs, and that if anything could counter those grades it would be the overall curriculum rigor even more than the ACT score.

Good luck man. I wish you well. It’s exciting. Enjoy the ride.

It is sad when current events are now history. Union was a NESCAC school until Ned Harkness’s forays into athletic recruiting led him outside the rulebook.

No one’s experience will be identical in recruiting at the same schools, particularly for different sports. Some coaches simply are better recruiters than others. Some coaches will have a need at a given position. Some sports need more recruits than others. And, let’s face it, not all recruits are created equally. In my view, there is no irony in a recruit with D1 athletic ability not being recruited at any given D3 school or for a given D3 sport.

Still your experience informs the rest of us as we try to glean trends from given schools. While your NESCAC experience may not be the same as MiddleburyDad2’s, your experience at Chicago and MIT seems to mirror other’s anecdotal tales. It’s the collective wisdom that helps others.

Good luck.

@gointhruaphase @MiddleburyDad2 Thank you for responding to my post! It’s an exciting process but also a confusing one, so I think it’s create to be promoting dialogue for future folks to help them sift through everything.

@MiddleburyDad2 I just want to clarify 1 point. My original posting was entirely my experience. The replies incorporated the experiences of some of my friends, and I wasn’t entirely specific about their experiences, so I apologize if the take-away was slightly misleading, but I’ll elaborate now

@MiddleburyDad2 May I ask which points you found not entirely accurate or somewhat surprising? Is it about the 24 ACT comment? I don’t want to give the impression that Test Optional means it’s a complete go because I’m aware the rest of the application—namely the transcript—must be reasonably strong.

I. Regarding Test Optional—
a. A former teammate told me had a 24 and got an offer from Trinity. I’ve seen his ACT score, so I believe the story. When he had a 22 at the end of junior year, the coach told him to try and hit a 24. Early senior year, coach gave him the impression he was #1 on their boards, but it won’t work until he hits 24. Low and behold, he got the 24 sometime senior fall and did get an offer. He also got offers from Colby and Union as test optional and was told not to submit his ACT scores.

b. I had a teammate who scored around 25 and got an offer from Tufts.

II. Briefly Regarding My Experience with NESCAC and Transparency (or lack thereof)–
I wrote an entire post on my laptop about my experiences with the NESCAC, but I’ve been hesitant to post it. I don’t want to offend folks who are there, but I also feel it might be informative for future recruits. I’ll summarize it a little and thereby elaborate a little more on what I said in my initial post.

MY experience was the NESCACs were more on the ball as a junior than the non-NESCAC D3s. However, they were generally much more demanding of my time and much less transparent.

My style was that I’m not shy to ask the difficult and perhaps annoying questions. However, given the demands of football and other family obligations I have, I wasn’t keen on visiting colleges unless I felt I may get an offer and I was sure I had some solid interest. I would speak on the phone, but I also didn’t have a load of time to do so that aligned with the coaches’ schedules.

That seemed to work fine with nearly every non-NESCAC D3. However, it didn’t seem to mesh well with the NESCACs–I felt the frustration on both ends.

They made me feel that I wasn’t visiting enough or speaking on the phone enough. They would answer my questions, but it happened quite a few times that the answers turned out later on to be false or at least not quite correct. They were questions they should have known answers to from having done the recruitment there before–as most of them had told me they had done. Those sorts of experiences made me less inclined to visit and do the phone time, so the frustrations only increased.

I don’t want to offend anybody by theorizing and speculating, but I’ll offer some thoughts on what could have been going on. In my initial post, I wrote they value face time because I feel if I had visited a lot up front, maybe I would have received more transparency? I felt many of them were testing me on “how bad do I want to be there,” something I didn’t get at others. I understand and respect if that’s the case because they may be using a slot on me. Yet they should have been more upfront about it. I think they should have also appreciated that I’m not based in the New England area, so other recruits might be visiting more often because of their geographic proximity. I found the non-NESCACs were able to navigate whether to use a slot on me and gauge my interest in a much more efficient and effective way.

However, at some test-optional colleges, a high compensating GPA will not be expected in all cases. USNWR profiled an athlete accepted at Bowdoin, for example, with a 3.3 GPA (SAT: 1650/2400).

@Merc81, I don’t think you can glean much of a trend from a single profiled athlete admitted to Bowdoin with a 3.3. I would offer that it is the unusual situation that should not make readers think that it happens all the time. Let’s face it, no college wants to bend admissions standards for an athlete, only to have him or her drop out after a year. We have no idea what was behind the curtain of the 3.3. Was there a significant upward trend in difficult classes at a difficult high school so that the adcom knew the recruit would do just fine. Were there other admission preferences at play. Let us acknowledge, however, that this person was the exception and not the rule (otherwise the athlete probably would not have been profiled).

It is better to harmonize your comment, with that of the poster and @MiddleburyDad2. First, recruited girls are generally held to higher admission standards than boys (one NESCAC told me that a girl would need two points higher on the ACT). Second, there are more slots in NESCAC football than any other sport, which would account for the lower acceptable ACT scores of the poster’s teammates. Other sports – such as girls soccer – have a wealth of smart, high achieving and talented players from which a college coach can choose. I suspect for women’s soccer, that statement about a 24 ACT at a non-TO school is right on the mark. Third, one must acknowledge that different NESCAC schools have different admission standards. I suspect it would be a harder sell for Amherst to accept the 24 ACT than Trinity. Finally, the slotted athletes typically are impact players. You can’t just be very good at your sport.

For the recruits, by all means cast a wide net and start a dialogue everywhere, but be sensitive to the responses. If you have a 24 ACT with a 3.3, go ahead and email the Williams coach. But, if you get no encouragement, the coach likely is telling you that you aren’t going to get in.

@gointhruaphase : In the context of this thread, I agree that your comments would be much more valuable then the isolation of a single example. Possibly worth noting, however, from the perspective of USNWR, that example appears not to have been singled out for its particularly exceptional nature – their printed issue annually looks in some detail at a cross-section of students from a particular high school.

I think the Bowdoin example is a bit of an outlier, which made it a nice example for the article. That kid, too, was llikel the coach’s No. 1 target, and it may be the case that schools allow their coaches one reach recruit. I don’t know. But I wouldn’t be confident applying to Bowdoin or any other upper-tier NESCAC with a 3.3.

But if you’re going to do it, being a highly prized football recruit is likely your best bet.

My experience with two kids who’ve gone through small college recruiting tracks post #6 pretty closely.

^“likely”. Sorry for the typo.

Thanks for the info! My S is a jr and we’re curious, excited and cautious. He’s got an ivy in mind and they seem interested, but time will tell. All advice is welcome.

A local very good football player was offered a spot on the Cornell team if he could get his ACT up to 24.

He must be a flat out stud, because a 24 even with a 4.0 is gonna put the kid pretty far down in band one. Kids down there are usually mid to high P5 level recruits.

Athletic QB. Here on this forum we put a high value on attending high academic schools, but for many, many HS athletes a place like Alabama, TCU, or Wisconsin are their dream schools. I would bet that a lot of the kids on the team don’t even know about Cornell , or here in the midwest will mix it up with Cornell College.

I honestly don’t believe half the low ACT/SAT stuff, tho I have heard football is different.

My son was highly recruited by NESCACs, but his 31 ACT sunk him for Amherst(they wanted a 32) and his less than 700 SAT2s sunk him from Williams. He had a 4.0 in a full IB curriculum and was in the top 5% of his graduating class.
Middlebury was happy to take him.

Carleton, St Olaf and Macalaster were very hot for him , too.

MIT and Carnegie Mellon said that they had no pull, and no idea til the official admit date who they were getting.
Georgetown coach “give me something with a 3_ in it”

I just thing when people say “my friend got offered a position with a 24” the friend might be lying about the offer, unless they actually went there.

^ I think it would be accurate to say, even for football and men’s basketball, that either the low standardized score stuff bandied about here is overstated, or every single one of the dozen or so Band 1 recruits admitted in the Ivy every year is being discussed on this board.