For Massachusetts Residents: Why Isn't UMass-Amherst "Better"?

<p>I read an article yesterday in the Boston Globe magazine about how a student decided to go to UMass-Amherst to save himself from going too deep into debt. However, I found myself saying to myself that as a Massachusetts resident that I would rather go to another state's public school than stay in-state for the UMass system. </p>

<p>Massachusetts is consistently known throughout the country as one of the best states to get a public education in for K-12. However, when you get to colleges, the quality of the education system seems to "decline". Don't get me wrong UMass-Amherst, Dartmouth, and Lowell are all very good schools but according to US News, 27 states including states like Iowa and Alabama have school(s) ranked above UMass-Amherst in the National Universities category. So while K-12, Massachusetts is amazing, for college, UMass-Amherst is ranked below 2 schools in Alabama (Auburn and Alabama) and Iowa (Iowa and Iowa State). </p>

<p>Why doesn't the state of Massachusetts invest a little more in improving the quality of colleges? I know there are many excellent private colleges in Massachusetts but there are still many students who cannot afford them or do not have the grades to get into a Harvard or BC.</p>

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<p>I think the problem with Mass and NY is that there are too many excellent private schools to compete with. Fact of life.</p>

<p>I too grew up in Boston. In my school, top student always to pick Ivy or little Ivys. Next tier students attend BC, Tufts, BU, WPI of world. Then after that, students pick UMass.</p>

<p>The problem is perception in my opinion. In the South, Ivy and little Ivys don’t view in the same light. In Georgia for example, many kids give up spot at MIT or better reputated schools for GaTech or even UGA (free tuition for B student).</p>

<p>Massachusetts has lots of good private schools and a high average income. Iowa and Alabama have few private schools and a lower average income. While the average K-12 student might be smarter in Massachusetts than Iowa or Alabama, Iowa and Alabama likely get a far higher percentage of top 10%/2000+ SAT students to go to state schools due to cost and location.</p>

<p>An education at UMass is what you make of it.</p>

<p>That said, MA and much of New England have been struggling with budgets for quite some time. New England is a high cost of living area and there has been a migration out of a lot of families to other areas of the country with lower costs of living and higher quality of life (such as the NC Triangle area). MA also has a lot of government bloat (call it corruption, patronage, nepotism but it costs money) and that bloat doesn’t go away in good times or bad.</p>

<p>NH has a far lower cost of government but also chooses to spend little on higher education.</p>

<p>If they don’t have the grades to get into BC, they probably won’t have the grades to get into the UMass Honors program (from a post on another thread that said that UMass Honors is more selective than Boston College).</p>

<p>I agree with Jim. If you ask anyone in Georgia, most would put UGA as one of their top choices. The Hope Scholarship is really great, but is it worth saying no to MIT?</p>

<p>Well, I know two different coworkers’ kids did just that. One graduated top five in his class and scored 1500/1600 and another scored 1550 of 1600. Both went to UGA honor program (and got presidential scholarship that paid room and board as well) and both want to go for Medical school. For them, getting a free education undergraduate then pay for Medical school make financial sense. Of course, there are many kids at Tech who could get into MIT and don’t want to do so due to economic and/or relocation.</p>

<p>Plain and simple people don’t pick UMASS becasue its a commuter school. I believe around 80% are from MA. maybe even higher. The campus is unnattractive and gloomy. It feels like high school part 2 for students who are from MA. It still def has a reputation of a party school, although they are cracking down. It’s by no means a bad school but its not that great either.</p>

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What does that mean? States like Iowa and Alabama? Is there something obvious wrt education that they have in common? Or is this just east coast bigotry? You know, one flyover state and one southern state. Couldn’t possibly be as smart as us.</p>

<p>If there’s something else please let me know.</p>

<p>No I just picked those two school states out of random (btw I am going to school next year in the south so I am def not bias against the south :)). My point is that Massachusetts is among the best states for K-12 education but the college system in Massachusetts is mediocre compared to other states. Here are the other 27 states (and schools) so that I can be “unbiased”:</p>

<p>Alabama (Alabama and Auburn)
Arizona (Arizona)
California (UC-Berkeley, UCLA, UC-Davis, UC-Irvine, UC-Santa Barbara, UC-Riverside, UC-Santa Cruz)
Colorado (Colorado, Colorado School Of Mines)
Connecticut (UConn)
Delaware (Delaware)
Florida (Florida)
Georgia (Georgia Tech, Georgia)
Illinois (Illinois)
Indiana (Purdue, Indiana)
Iowa (Iowa, Iowa State)
Kansas (Kansas)
Maryland (Maryland)
Michigan (Michigan, Michigan State)
Minnesota (Minnesota)
Missouri (Missouri)
Nebraska (Nebraska)
New Jersey (Rutgers)
New York (SUNY: Binghamton, Stony Brook, College of Environmental Science and Forestry)
North Carolina (UNC, NC State)
Ohio (Ohio State, Miami)
Pennsylvania (Penn State, Pittsburgh)
South Carolina (Clemson)
Texas (Texas, Texas A&M)
Vermont (Vermont)
Virginia (UVA, William & Mary, Virginia Tech)
Washington (Washington)
Wisconsin (Wisconsin)</p>

<p>Umass Amherst has Commonwealth College which is excellent . I disagree with the K-12 quality of education, in Mass. I want to know why we make continual budget cuts, instead of investing in our youth. Maybe we would have less crime if our kids were more invested and supported. Our country needs to maake education a priority. With our vast wealth it is such a shame. Yes , we should have top quality public education on every level.</p>

<p>The education of kids is one thing that is intensely personal and highly perishable. So every parent wants the best for their kids. Money is allocated based mainly on where you live for public education. Private money and the understanding of how to work the system is something that the wealthy have a better handle on (the internet democratizes some of that). Private money can provide opportunities, help and additional education that state education systems have a hard time equalizing.</p>

<p>Even something as simple as having a spouse at home full-time can make a considerable difference in the education of a child or the education quality in a school district.</p>

<p>MA is facing stark drops in revenue. The Legislature has responded by hiking the sales tax. If the economy doesn’t bottom out by the end of the year (as some are predicting), then 2009-2010 is looking to be a lot worse than 2008-2009 and there will be far worse budget cuts than we’re seeing right now.</p>

<p>It appears that crime will go up as summer jobs programs are cut (except for one of the Governor’s new pet projects), special crimefighting programs are cut, local police forces are cut and more people are out of work. If you haven’t already seen growing crimes in the Bay State, then you’re either in a wealthy town or you aren’t paying attention.</p>

<p>As in other states, funding and educational quality vary enormously from district to district, which is not to say that high funding district are better than lower funding districts.
MA depends greatly on property taxes; obviously, some districts are wealthier than others and have different demographics.</p>

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<p>[Laughs] The poster can answer for himself. I can’t even guess at the Iowa thing because Iowa high school students have always had a rep for outperforming most states. </p>

<p>Alabama is near the bottom and if memory serves they also flip-flop with Mississippi for the lowest education dollars spent per child in the nation. So, no I don’t think Iowa and Alabama, from the standpoint of K-12 education have much in common.</p>

<p>I think pierre’s point is pretty straightforward, bird rock. A relatively high proportion of the Massachusetts population is relatively affluent and highly educated. It invests reasonably well in public education prior to college, although as downtoearth points out, it may have been resting on its old infrastructure for quite a while. Harvard and MIT are two of the best research universities in the world, arguably each is best of breed. Harvard is unique in its reputation and touch beyond academia (alumni network, advice to governments, etc.). There are many other strong schools in the state including Amherst and Williams which often rank at the top of LACs. There’s BC, BU, Olin, and hundreds of other schools here. The state is the center of the biotech industry, is reasonably strong in high tech and VC (though on a downward trajectory, I’d say), and strong in finance. The industries employ highly educated, affluent folks who typically value their kids’ education highly. So, why do we not invest in a manner comparable to other states in our public university? So, it is not a </p>

<p>I’m not an expert on this, but there is no inherent snobbery in wondering why a state whose primary asset is human capital does not invest more heavily in its human capital since we should have the understanding of the need and the resources to do so. I think kayf and BCeagle have part of the explanation. We’ve been free-riding to a certain extent on the great private institutions. Second, the political class in the state appears to be highly attached to education (or much beyond patronage). I’ve never understood state and Boston politics, but one of my friends, who had a very successful stint in a high position here, told me that to be successful in getting stuff done in matters involving the state government (and particularly the legislature), one needs to know what neighborhood in Southie people come from. If true (and my friend is very astute so I’d bet he’s right), politics in Massachusetts is relatively tribal and the political power is concentrated in a very small part of the population, and that part of the population isn’t as invested in higher education as much of the state. BCEagle is also correct in saying that because of the inefficiency, vestiges of old-style social welfare, nepotism and corruption, we get a lot less bang for our tax buck than other states do. So, we’ve got lack of tradition (we never needed to have a great flagship when it was an two-class society), lack of vision among our political leaders, and an inefficient mechanism for converting tax dollars into improvements. </p>

<p>Incidentally, Pierre, out high schools could be a lot better than they are, but we have a plethora of excellent private high schools and people who would push for excellent public schools lose interest in paying higher taxes for a good they don’t expect to benefit from (at least directly). To a certain extent, the same is true for universities.</p>

<p>Incidentally, despite all of this and the bad weather and the sub-standard infrastructure, I like living here because there are a lot of really interesting people.</p>

<p>I think one of the reasons why UMass is always given the shaft, is because the politicians in Boston are surrounded by the huge amount of prestigious universities and colleges in the eastern part of the state. Most of them are probably alumni from those colleges as well. I’m sure they tend to forget UMass even exists. </p>

<p>To go along with why Alabama and Iowa are ranked ahead of us, I think part of the reason why is that they don’t have high quality secondary schools like we do, so they fund their universities better. Another reason is possibly because they may be one of the only few universities in the state. I thought I read somewhere on CC that the University of Wyoming gives out insane financial aid because of oil money and the fact that its the only university in the state.</p>

<p>I really am enjoying my UMass experience even though it’s filled with so much red tape, huge classes, and depleting funds. I am having the best years of my life here and I have no regrets. It really ****es me off when I hear high school kids say they don’t want to go to UMass because their smarter than that. It’s their choice though and if they want to walk out of college in four years with an insane amount of debt, it’s their decision.</p>

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<p>“Plain and simple people don’t pick UMASS becasue its a commuter school. I believe around 80% are from MA. maybe even higher. The campus is unnattractive and gloomy. It feels like high school part 2 for students who are from MA. It still def has a reputation of a party school, although they are cracking down. It’s by no means a bad school but its not that great either.”</p>

<p>[DISCLAIMER: I am an employee of UMass Boston.]</p>

<p>I’m having a little trouble figuring out which campus you’re talking about. </p>

<p>UMass Boston is a commuter school (we’re not supposed to use that phrase anymore, but it still fits). Our campus certainly has some unattractive and even gloomy aspects, and some of the rooms and corridors do have a bit of a “high school 2” feel about them; but we also have a stunning new campus center full of light and air, and beautiful panoramic views of Boston Harbor. If UMass Boston has “a reputation of a party school,” it’s the first I’ve heard of it after 15 years of working here, and it would be an odd thing for a commuter school, if you think about it. </p>

<p>UMass Amherst is very much <em>not</em> a commuter school. While some parts of its campus aren’t especially attractive, I wouldn’t call it “gloomy.” It does seem to have a reputation as a party school; I think most big residential state U campuses have that reputation, and most probably deserve it to some extent.</p>

<p>Both campuses have a lot to offer academically; Amherst has a wider range of programs, while Boston has a better student/faculty ratio.</p>

<p>Certainly all the UMass campuses are underfunded. It’s an uphill battle in a state with so many topnotch private institutions; there’s bound to be more complacency about the status and funding of public universities than in states where the public university is the flagship not just for public higher ed but for higher ed, period.</p>

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<p>The Northeast in general has better private universities than public universities (keep in mind these private colleges originally educated the wealthy and high society folks). With so many private colleges, it stunted the growth of public universities. Most of the older colleges in the region were privates. As you expand further westward in the country, the public universities are more dominant with the primary mission to educate their local citizens (Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Cal, Texas, etc.)</p>

<p>UMass lives in UConn’s shadow.</p>

<p>It is also funny that people outside of NE view UMASS more favorable than people inside of MA. UMass-amherst is good choice, specially for CS and some enginering major.</p>