<p>There’s a lot posted about the NY day schools on the Forbes List. I want to go back to the CT boarding schools. What happened to Choate on the Forbes List? Back in 2009, Forbes wrote on the most elite BS in America and led that JFK matriculated from Choate. Almost all the schools in that 2009 article, Milton, Deerfield, Andover, Exeter etc are in both articles. I don’t care about “elite,” so much as I do about excellent and top BSs. How are Choate and Hotchkiss both CT schools missing and Hopkins made the list? Choate and Hotchkiss have similar matriculation stats as Hopkins but Hopkins can’t even compare. It accepts 50% of its applicants by its own admission on its website. Choate consistently wins the Siemens Science competitions and this year won the national Economics competition. How does Hopkins eke out Choate for one of the last spots on the top 20? Do you think Choate and or Hotchkiss are number 21 and 22? I know they want to have a cut-off somewhere but why not list all 55 in a table? Finally, Winsor (all-girls) in Boston may have high matriculation stats, but they never win any national school competitions.</p>
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<p>I figure it’s a scoring system, so no matter how “elite” the school is, it’s not in the top 20 list if its total score is not high enough.</p>
<p>@redbluegoldgreen:</p>
<p>I’m certainly not questioning your contention that Choate and Hotchkiss are excellent schools (they certainly are), but wanted to address this point of yours:</p>
<p>How are Choate and Hotchkiss both CT schools missing and Hopkins made the list? Choate and Hotchkiss have similar matriculation stats as Hopkins but Hopkins can’t even compare. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that the Forbes list is determined by 50% matriculation statistics to Ivy+M+S and 50% student/faculty ratio, faculty advanced degrees, and endowment. Of course, Forbes doesn’t really make it clear how they really combine these factors. However, you make the claim that these three schools have “similar matriculation stats”. The problem is that they don’t. From my spreadsheets (which probably average over longer time periods then the Forbes study does), I have Hopkins - 23.2%, Hotchkiss - 18.4%, Choate - 19.0%. Not seemingly a huge difference in the grand scheme of things, but obviously enough to be the difference between making it onto this list and not.</p>
<p>And some of the other characteristics that you cite about Choate and Hotchkiss are interesting and relevant for students looking into those schools, but totally irrelevant for the Forbes methodology. And I’m sure that Hopkins has some outstanding features of its own.</p>
<p>In other words, your post sounds like it is born of the natural frustration that any list like this causes when “your” school is missing. But that is no excuse to grasp for irrational “reasons”. Forbes described the criteria, albeit somewhat poorly. It then makes no sense to say that “your” school should be on Forbes’ list because if Forbes had used a different set of criteria, then “your” school would be higher ranked. It is certainly fair to say, however, that Forbes chose an inappropriate set of criteria, give the reasons why you think that is the case, and then propose an alternate set of criteria that you feel would be more appropriate.</p>
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Lvillgrad, they said,
It sounds like they are trying to capture the long term trend too.</p>
<p>I have not read through this thread but figured I’d just post this comment from the Forbes article written by a DA student about some significant miscalculations in at least the DA placing on the list:</p>
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<p>It seems to be somewhat strange that the advanced-degree number was so botched. And the lack of scope with which they chose the matriculation numbers. But Forbes has a history I think of poor calculating ability when it comes to school rankings. They ranked West Point number one as I’m sure many of you know. A lot of that was due to the relative tuition cost (zero for USMA). But if they’re going to include something that measures one of USMA’s unique aspect, they should cover the other ones…For example, if they had a stat category for how many graduates went on to be KIA, then West Point probably wouldn’t sit on number one…</p>
<p>But before I exit the discussion I’d like to say that these rankings really don’t mean anything to me. While I think the schools like Hopkins, etc., are ranked unduly high, I am not saying that any of these schools are bad schools, or are anything close to even average for that matter. They’re all great, great schools. In fact, they (the schools listed) strike me as close enough in quality that the difference is not the school itself but what a student makes of it.</p>
<p>The fineprint says “Based on percentage of graduates over the last five years (unless otherwise noted)”. Where is Deerfield’s 5 year matriculation data anyway? I guess the “calculator” just like you and me had no way in finding the data and had to settle with the 1 year data on Deefield website?</p>
<p>I have both 2008 and 2009 data available and calculate the 2-year IVY+M+S stat at 23.7%. Seems like 2008 may have been a little bit better than 2009, but nothing too dramatic.</p>
<p>Another “ranking” train wreck and CC gaper delay. For the ranking-obsessed, there is Lvillegrad’s masterwork, which is the highest quality listing of its kind. </p>
<p>Still, for those of us who think boarding school rankings are, at best, a secondary data point, it makes one wonder if the competitive mindset is as unattractive and misguided at some of these schools as it is on this site.</p>
<p>of course it is</p>
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<p>Yes. It is.</p>
<p>Healthy dose of competition ought to be good and desirable. Major discoveries are usually a result of people becoming restless with something in this world. With many applicants and college admit rates hovering around 7%, it’s natural for people to try to position themselves to be in. Based on the admit rates whoever got into HYPS 10 years ago may not make the cut now.</p>
<p>bluegoldgreen:</p>
<p>Choate is no doubt an impressive school, and you should be proud of your association with it. However, you are doing the school a disservice by providing inaccurate information. Lvillegrad has already pointed out that your post contains dubious claims about college matriculation. I want to add that your statements about national competitions are misleading at best, and unjustifiably biased against other schools.</p>
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<p>Here are the facts, from [Siemens</a> Foundation - Siemens Competition](<a href=“Siemens Foundation - Siemens USA”>Siemens Foundation - Siemens USA): Choate has only had one (regional) winner in the last ten years, a New England Region Silver Medal Winner in 2005. Impressive, yes, but how is winning once in ten years “consistent”?</p>
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<p>Here are the facts, from [::</a> NationalEconomicsChallenge ::](<a href=“http://economicschallenge.councilforeconed.org/]::”>http://economicschallenge.councilforeconed.org/): The winners have not yet been announced this year (2010), and Choate is not one of the six finalists. Were you referring to some other event? Are there any other national economics competitions at the high school level?</p>
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<p>National wins are rare for any school, Choate included, as the above facts show. Since you mention Winsor (full disclosure: my daughter attends Winsor), let’s consider a comparison, this time the Intel Science Talent Search.</p>
<p>Here are the facts, from [Society</a> for Science & the Public - Intel STS - Past Results](<a href=“http://www.societyforscience.org/sts/results]Society”>http://www.societyforscience.org/sts/results): This year (2010): one semifinalist for Choate, one for Winsor. Neither of the two schools have had STS winners (top 10) in the last nine years. Choate and Winsor have each had four semifinalists (top 300) in the last nine years, and Choate had one finalist. Clear edge for Choate? Not really, because Winsor’s average class size is 59, while Choate’s is 226 (data from Lvillegrad’s matriculation statistics page at [Matriculation</a> Stats](<a href=“matriculationstats.org”>http://matriculationstats.org/)). Based on class sizes, one would expect Choate to place at a given level about four times as frequently as Winsor, assuming equal caliber of the two schools’ entrants.</p>
<p>So, it appears that you may have allowed your justifiable pride in Choate’s many qualities to misguide you to a biased view of the facts.</p>
<p>Again, I have no doubts that Choate, and Hotchkiss, and the schools on the Forbes list are all very impressive. It is true that there are many ways to rank, and that no one ranking should be taken as an indication of “overall quality”, especially since the relative importance of various criteria is such an individual matter. These things can and should be discussed fairly. Let’s try not to muddle the discussion by introducing factual inaccuracies and unsubstantiated biases.</p>
<p>Parlabane: For the ranking-obsessed, there is Lvillegrad’s masterwork, which is the highest quality listing of its kind. </p>
<p>And I didn’t even have to pay for this endorsement. Thanks! :)</p>
<p>I think by starting with the Ivy+SM figure people are reading matriculation data backwards. That figure can be influenced by a number of the factors noted here, including pre-selection of a number of superstar students, diversity, legacies, athletes, etc. I find the number at the other end of Lvillegrad’s chart more interesting - the number of students that enroll at top 50 universities and top 30 LACs. That gives a measure of the overall depth of the graduating class. Being in an environment that emphasizes academic challenge and achievement throughout the community is one of the major benefits of boarding school. The “strong school” measure isn’t perfect because it doesn’t capture cases where high achieving graduates pursue specialty schools (e.g. conservatories), highly ranked programs in larger universities (e.g. “xSU has a great ‘xxx’ program”), or choices driven by financial need/scholarships. Nonetheless, it gives a pretty good idea of the academic profile of the student body.</p>
<p>To get another measure that was more interesting than just Ivy+SM, last year I determined how far down a particular ranking list (the flawed but readily available USNWR) one would have to go in order to encompass the top 2/3 of the class. For leading boarding schools it is approximately 25-30 (i.e. 2/3 of the graduating class matriculates at a post-secondary institution listed in the top 25-30 of the “national universities” or “LAC” lists). Again, the idea is to get a sense for the majority of the class rather than just the fortunate minority.</p>
<p>P.S. Yes, I know most matriculation metrics, including Ivy+SM, are highly correlated, but the perspective is different. Rather than feeding the “if I go to Such and Such Academy I’ll get into Harvard” (which obviously cannot be guaranteed) mindset, the goal is to provide another data point regarding the overall academic environment a potential boarding school student will be exposed to for the next several years.</p>
<p>From Choate’s website: Convocation remarks from 2007 (don’t see anything more recent), and yes, perhaps the national Economics HS competition was 2009 vs. 2010, buy hey let’s not split hairs, what a great accomplishment!!! Below,
these aren’t my words:</p>
<p>What kind of contributions and distinctions has Choate Rosemary Hall achieved over the course
of the last couple of years? Let me try some.
· What school was the only school in Connecticut to have two members of the Class of
2006 out of just 107 students across the country to score a perfect 2400 on the new SAT?
Choate . . . of course!
· Over the past decade, what school has had not 10, not 20, not 30, not 50, not 75, but 123
students named Finalists in the National Merit Scholarship Award Competition? Choate
. . . of course!
· In 2007, the U.S. Under-18 Select Ice Hockey Team chose a student from one prep
school in New England, in all of New England, representing the United States in the
Memorial Tournament in Slovakia and the Czech Republic? What school? Choate . . . of
course!
· In the same year 2007, what school was the only one of the eight schools to have two
students named National Semifinalists in the Siemens Competition in Math, Science and
Technology, preceded by a finalist who was presented with a National Silver Award and
a $50,000 scholarship? What school? Choate . . . of course!
· In 2007, what school was State and New England Math Champion besting the top
medium-size public and private schools in Massachusetts, Vermont, Maine, New
Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island? What school? Choate . . . of course!
· What high school was the only one in the United States to send three students to the
International Physics Olympiad? Choate . . . of course!
· With six wins in the last seven years, what school is the undisputed Connecticut State
Economics Champion? Choate . . . of course!
· And last year, which school had three students invited to take U.S. Math Olympiad
qualifying test when only 500 students nationwide were invited to take this exam? What
school? Choate . . . of course!
· What school has in the Class of 2008 a playwright whose play was accepted by a
nationwide theater company – what school? Choate . . . of course!
· Of the 36 teams participating in the Invitational Debate Competition, what school won
the coveted best individual speaker award in the advanced division? What school?
Choate . . . of course!
· What school had all ten applicants, ten out of ten, selected by the University of
Pennsylvania to participate in an inaugural three-week trip to China this year? What
school? Choate . . . of course!
· Only one secondary school in the entire United States has three alums playing together on
a United States Olympic Team, namely the U.S. Olympic Women’s Ice Hockey Team.
What school? Choate . . . of course!
· What school in 1988, in 1995, and again last year in 2007, was the only one of our peer
schools in the Eight Schools Association to have a student receive one of the nation’s
highest honors for high school students, recognition as a Presidential Scholar? What
school? Choate . . . of course!
· In addition, as part of the Presidential Scholar Program, over the past 19 years, one
school has three members of its faculty who have received the prestigious award of
Distinguished Teacher and they remain on this school’s faculty to this day. What school?
Choate . . . of course!
· What is the only school, the only school in New England, perhaps in the nation, that
because of nine New England District Championships in the last 10 years, nine out of 10,
earned by its Fed Challenge economics team was asked to consider – listen to this – this
team was asked to consider taking a year off to give somebody else a better chance to
win? What school? Choate . . . of course!
· Finally, what school has a graduate in the Class of 2003 go on to graduate this year from
Princeton University, Class of 2007, as Valedictorian, and, while still an undergraduate,
completed all his course work and exams for a Ph.D. in economics? What school?
Choate . . . of course!
*** end website
My point is there is more than matriculation stats and whether or not faculty have a masters that define what is meant by “top tier.” The proof is in the pudding or the students.</p>
<p>Okay, RBG2</p>
<p>I’ve been following your posts for a while and yes - the proof is in the pudding when looking beyond any school’s stats— including those not considered “top tier” because “top tier” seems to be determined by the feeding frenzy of students and parents vetting only a narrow subset and driving up “demand” in a seller’s market.</p>
<p>But as many stats as you read does not mean it will apply to YOUR child. YOUR child may be in that subset that doesn’t get to those competitions (or isn’t interested in them) or doesn’t go to an IVY, etc.</p>
<p>Which is why those of us with direct experience and ongoing relationships with these schools are telling you to stop using the stats to create false hope that some miracle rabbit will be pulled out of a hat for children who enter a specific school</p>
<p>Again - the schools self-select students already predisposed to attain those achievements, not the ones that have to be helped to get them. There are a few exceptions, but given the applicant pool it is no longer the norm. Do the schools have facilities that help this process? Yes. Faculty? Maybe. Remember, private schools operate under different rules from public schools including certification requirements. So the answer is - it depends.</p>
<p>Once upon a time Exeter had an Olympic class athlete. She came in that way, not “we made her that way.” Yet some parent, somewhere, wanted to cite that as a “stat” for why we were a better school (sigh).</p>
<p>So you can spout attributes until the cows come home, but unless it specifically means your child will achieve them, it’s a moot point.</p>
<p>Me thinks the parents showing the most desperation and citing the most stats as a rationale for their school selections will - in the end - be the most disappointed or will be the parents who cause the most stress for their child when they fail to achieve the desired goals.</p>
<p>What amuses me most is that the perfect school for a specific child may be overlooked because the parent is chasing a statistic, not a perfect fit.</p>
<p>I get it-- all valid and excellent points. It’s taking me awhile, but points around “it’s the student driving the school’s matriculation stats and not the other way around” is finally hitting home. For some of us it takes longer than others. I guess I need to be able to inquire from others more knowledgable than me, throw out assertions and let others challenge them, be allowed to vent and dialogue about my experiences, and struggles, hopes and desires. That’s how I learn best. Thank you for not denigrating me yet again on THIS thread. I’d like to be able to keep sharing experiences, and learning for myself.</p>
<p>Exie,</p>
<p>Are you implying that Choate is not “top tier”? If so, how does it not measure up – college acceptances? That, as we all know, is NOT the reason for going to boarding school…</p>
<p>Among the hundreds of boarding schools, are there so called “top tier schools”? To me, the schools that are RELATIVELY strong in the following areas (not in the order of importance) are top tier schools.</p>
<ol>
<li>Quality of faculty (faculty members with advanced degrees, years of teaching experience, turnover rate, etc.) - great teachers is a must for a great school!</li>
<li>Quality of student body (admit rate, yield, class ranking and average SSAT of admitted class) - the overall strong student body helps build a stimulating learning environment, lively and in-depth class discussions, co-/extra-curricular activities of high quality, etc.</li>
<li>Endowment - financial strength to enable the school to be updated on its facility, to support the initiatives and activities for both teachers and students, retain good teachers and to distribute enough FA for a balanced and diverse student body.<br></li>
<li>Course offerings and faculty student ratio - students will not outgrow the school</li>
<li>College matriculation - “do better ingredients really make better pizza”</li>
</ol>
<p>Top tier schools provide unique and excellent opportunities for the high calibre and high driven students. Lower tiered schools serve many other students better. All schools are not the same tier. Ranking like this is always debatable, but tier is a valid concept. Just my opinion.</p>
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<p>Well put, especially for folks on this site.</p>