Forbes MBA Rankings (2009)

<p>Oh, don’t get me wrong. There absolutely is nothing wrong that that. After all, that’s what that Forbes survey is all about, thus my emphasis of the dates involved or covered. </p>

<p>However, I’ve always maintained my claim that Berkeley-Haas became a top 10 only very recently. In my personal assessment, it was only about 3 or 4 years ago that they’ve gained that feat - a solid top 10 business school now. Having said that, it would be in 2011 or 2012 that Berkeley-Haas’ success would reflect on Forbes’ ranking, because Forbes gathers data of the alumni who graduated 5 years or so ago.</p>

<p>Again, several years ago, Berkeley-Haas wasn’t as strong it is today. Five years or so ago, it was in its transition period - still trying to gain prominence and self-identity. But today, it has gradually reaped its gain, having overtaken several very respectable institutions in the prestige race, and is now well-placed in the top 10. Now, Haas is just as prestigious, if not slightly more prestigious than Tuck, and is well ahead of Yale-SOM. This isn’t my claim alone. USNews, the most respectable league table for MBA today is saying so too.</p>

<p>A proof that Berkeley-Haas is now better than in the previous years: [Haas</a> School of Business](<a href=“http://www2.haas.berkeley.edu/News/Newsroom/090826newstudents.aspx]Haas”>Business Leaders Welcome New Students from Around the Globe | Haas News | Berkeley Haas)</p>

<p>For the second year in a row, the entering full-time Berkeley MBA class is statistically the strongest class ever, with an average GPA of 3.59 and an average GMAT of 718. Applications increased by 7 percent this past year to 4,064, and admission was offered to about 11 percent of the applicant pool.</p>

<p><em>larfs</em></p>

<p>man, you just can’t make this stuff up. RML, I have to hand it to you, there is no single cheerleader that blows more sunshine up Cal’s backside than you do - even if they paid you, you couldn’t be more glowing. if Cal has any kind of negative –> there is just no getting through those thick-arsed rosy sunglasses, if it were a living breathing creature surely it would crap Tiffany cuff links.</p>

<p>congratulations.</p>

<p>(p.s. no one really thinks that Haas is a top 10 b-school)</p>

<p>Ha ha ha ha ha … a big <em>larfs</em> at your nonsense post too, the prestige.</p>

<p>you don’t know how to defend your yourself, let alone the school you’re rooting for. Did you even attend a top 1,000 business school? </p>

<p>Bhahahahahahaha…</p>

<p>why won’t you start posting Tuck and Yale-SOM’s data so you would start to regain your credibility? Let’s analyze the data if they’re ahead of Haas.</p>

<p><a href=“p.s.%20no%20one%20really%20thinks%20that%20Haas%20is%20a%20top%2010%20b-school”>quote</a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, actually, I think it is, if perhaps just barely. My top 10 would be the M7 + Dartmouth Tuck, Duke Fuqua, and Berkeley Haas, not necessarily in that order. </p>

<p>Now, I agree with you that maybe Haas may not be a top 10 school in the future, and I agree that Yale has excellent potential to become one. But the question is not whether Haas will be a top 10 school, but whether it is right now, and at this time, I would say it is simply because I don’t see a clearcut 10 other schools that are better at this time. We can argue about Michigan or Virginia perhaps being better, but I am not entirely convinced that they are.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>You can’t simply analyze the data, you have to be able to interpret the data. And frankly RML, you haven’t shown that you posses either the maturity or the knowledge necessary to do that. If a ranking supports what you want, it is a good ranking; if it does not, it is flawed. That seems to be as far as your interpretive ability goes. </p>

<p>Like the prestige said, I’ll give it to you: I don’t think I could find a more ardent fan of Berkeley/ Haas than you. But let’s face it, you are not exactly a paragon of objectivity. You cannot only rely on hard data to justify your position. You cannot decry other views as ‘subjective’ and ‘worthless’, when in the end yours is as well if we apply the same criteria. </p>

<p>I’ll take the liberty to qualify The Prestige’s statement: </p>

<p>No one who is not already affiliated with Berkeley (be that affiliation emotional - such as yours - or real, such as Sakky’s) really thinks that Haas is a top 10 business school.</p>

<p>After all, depending on which body of data we base our judgment, I could just as easily do what you seem to love to do (ie, to take what other people post and turn it against them):</p>

<p>Again, several years ago, Yale SOM wasn’t as strong it is today. Five years or so ago, it was in its transition period - still trying to gain prominence and self-identity. But today, it has gradually reaped its gain, having overtaken several very respectable institutions in the prestige race, and is now well-placed in the top 10. Now, Yale SOM is just as prestigious, if not slightly more prestigious than Tuck, and is well ahead of Haas. This isn’t my claim alone. USNews, the most respectable league table for MBA today is saying so too.</p>

<p>Now that would not be mature of me, would it?</p>

<p>But regardless, there are probably much more knowledgeable people who agree with this revised version of your post than with the original (well, except perhaps for the assertion re Yale > Tuck right now, or even with Haas > Tuck. Both assertions are just incorrect as of today). The can’t all be wrong, RML? Can they?</p>

<p>And one more thing:</p>

<p>If you seriously consider USNews to be “the most respectable league table for MBA today”, then that is clear evidence that you do not know what you are talking about. Yes, USNews is the most readily available and the probably the most heavily consumed by both knowledgeable and ignorant people. But it is hardly the ‘best’ or the ‘most respectable’. There are serious problems with its methodology and there is a clear gap between what it actually means vs. what it purports to mean.</p>

<p>RML: *Haas is a very good school.<a href=“Heck,%20I%20know%20of%20one%20McKinsey%20consultant%20whose%20top-2%20choices%20for%20business%20school%20were%20HBS%20and%20Berkeley.”>/I</a> It is on some knowledgeable people’s top-10 list; it is also outside other very knowledgeable people’s top-10 list. Yet that is a completely subjective take; you like Cadillac, I like Mercedes Benz. Haas, however, is not an *elite *school. Yale SOM, if it continues building on its momentum, has the potential and every opportunity to become one.</p>

<p>I thought this seemed fitting to the discussion at hand: [MBA</a> Admissions and Careers: The Top MBA Programs](<a href=“http://mbaapply.blogspot.com/2007/06/top-mba-programs.html]MBA”>MBA Admissions and Careers: The Top MBA Programs)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Wildflower wrote: </p>

<p>“**Haas is a very good school. (Heck, I know of one McKinsey consultant whose top-2 choices for business school were HBS and Berkeley.) It is on some knowledgeable people’s top-10 list; it is also outside other very knowledgeable people’s top-10 list. Yet that is a completely subjective take; you like Cadillac, I like Mercedes Benz. **”</p>

<p>See, he did not refute that Haas isn’t a top 10 b-school. He did not also declare that Yale SOM is now a top 10 b school. Therefore, he’s the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about or completely clueless why he has to just blurt out messages that don’t support his contention or argument. And, people who often commit such mistakes shouldn’t be taken seriously in a debate like this.</p>

<p>

define elite school? </p>

<p>

But the point is, all the top b schools are building their momentum. Don’t you understand? All of them are doing their best to move up to the top echelon of the ranking league table. All of them are trying to be the best. How sure are you that only Yale-SOM is doing that? In fact, I think Yale SOM is the slowest amongst the elite group when it comes to exerting efforts and money to build its program in order to compete with the very best. It has stopped its plan to build a new b school facility while Haas is constantly expanding and renovating its facilities. Yale SOM has stopped its hiring of faculty while Haas has just added 5. The quality of student intake at Yale remained constant, while Haas’ has gone up and selectivity level is now higher than ever - more than 4k applied to Haas, in contrast only more than 2k applied to Yale SOM. So, who are you kidding on here? </p>

<p>Aside from that, what’s Yale SOM ever going to become famous for? None! Harvard became famous for GM. Stanford for its entrepreneurship (and nw, Haas and MIT are heading toward that direction). Kellogg for its marketing. Wharton and Chicago for its finance. MIT for its supply chain. Berkeley for its innovation and start ups. </p>

<p>Additionally, region plays a big factor. Harvard/MIT is in Boston. Kellogg and Chicago are in Chicago. Stanford and Berkeley are in Bay Area. And where is Yale??? New Haven. LOL…</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Don’t turn the topic of this debate into me or my personality. This isn’t about me or my personality. Doing that is going low. This is about Berkeley aas vs Yale SOM. Don’t also think that I’m doing this for Haas. I can make the same argument for Duke vs Yale SOM or Tuck vs Yale SOM.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Oh, I don’t know about that. Seems to me that USNews ranks Berkeley Haas well within the top 10, and I rather doubt that USNews is in Berkeley’s pocket by any means.</p>

<p>Again, I’d return the discussion back to first principles. For Haas to not be in the top 10, there would have to be 10 other schools that are clearly superior. Maybe 7 such schools are clearly superior, maybe even 8 or 9, but 10? I think that’s a stretch.</p>

<p>RML, can you not smell the ***** you’ve shoveling? I mean seriously man. </p>

<p>You take a interesting post and twist it into total nonsense. Haas may or may not be a top ten b-school (IMO opinion it probably is 10 or 11), but the whole point from the admissions consultant was that it was not better or worse than the others just outside of the big eight. </p>

<p>Also, how they hell is New Haven a bad location? its 90 minutes from NYC and Boston, and right next to the HFs in CT. In terms of location, Yale is about as good as it gets. You better believe that the major banks in NYC are all going to New Haven. I don’t think this is hugely important, but its just another example of your flawed logic. Also, again, if you want to talk about momentum, no school has more than Yale SOM right now, including your beloved Berkeley. Just look as Yale’s ascent in the rankings in recent years. If you were a momentum investor, Yale would be an obvious buy. They have a brand new campus and curriculum (which is highly praised), and have jumped in ranking almost every year.</p>

<p>Now do I think Yale SOM is > Berkeley Haas? Not sure, I’d say they’re pretty close. I’d personally choose Yale for location, but i could see why some would choose Haas. The point however is that your posts are filled with flawed logic, but you seem to think that if you continue to spout out the same nonsense that it may start being true. It’s ridiculous.</p>

<p>storch, the claim that Yale SOM is superior to Haas is the one that’s nonsense. I mean seriously man. Show me why Yale SOM is superior to Haas. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Brand new campus? where? Show me that Yale SOM has a brand new campus? </p>

<p>In case you weren’t aware, the plan of a new campus facility was put on hold because of funding problems. Yale SOM isn’t rich. It’s endowment isn’t big. It’s alumni are subpar compared to those of the REAL top 10 business schools. Again, the plan of a new campus facility was still / still is / will still be on the blue print until money is raised. But then again, Yale SOM isn’t rich like HBS or SBS and the economy isn’t helping them realized that dream either. </p>

<p>Now, you mentioned curriculum. What’s special about Yale SOM’s curriculum that would make it a top 3 b school in the future? </p>

<p>People who apply to b schools aren’t ignorant or stupid like some posters on here who were easily bought by the smear propaganda and false marketing campaign of Yale SOM. Most top caliber MBA aspirants would still aim for HBS then SBS and Wharton. They’re already quite solid at the top 3. It would take Yale SOM forever to break that given its progress rate and strong improvements of other elite b schools. Now, the rest of the b schools have niches. The rest of the applicants would tend to go to the b school that cater their interests the most – Kellogg = Mktg; Chicago/Columbia/NYU/Tuck = Finance; MIT = Supply Chain, entrepreneurship; Berkeley-Haas = innovation, start ups, technology, entrepreneurship. And Yale SOM? nah…nothing. </p>

<p>Again, here’s how I (and I bet most top MBA aspirants) would rank the elite b schools: </p>

<ol>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Stanford, Wharton</li>
<li>Northwestern</li>
<li>Chicago-Booth, MIT-Sloan, Columbia</li>
<li>Berkeley-Haas, Dartmouth-Tuck</li>
</ol>

<ul>
<li>the SOLID top 9 -</li>
</ul>

<p>10 - Michigan-Ross, Duke-Fuqua</p>

<p>NYU-Stern, Yale SOM, Virgina-Darden, Cornell-Johnson, UCLA-Anderson</p>

<p>Well, this isn’t conclusive. But this is by and large the more acceptable ranking TODAY.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This is not a college debate, RML. This is not about ‘refuting’ or ‘declaring’ anything. You can’t win on technicalities here. You either know what you are talking about or you do not. It is clear from your posts that you do not know what you are talking about. This is particularly evident in the way you engage other knowledgeable posters on this forum, such as monydad or hmom or the prestige. You are disrespectful, naive and arrogant. Not a good combination, esp. not for someone who does not have a clue about what they are talking about. Sure, you can analyze data you find online and you can do research online, but that does not translate into good business judgment or experience in the business world. You don’t have either. You need experience to have either. Your analysis is inevitably flawed by virtue of your inexperience–which translate into you not being able to discern what matters from what does not really matter.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>No one is turning anything into a debate about you or your personality. (But, in any case, how is that ‘going low’? That’s, frankly, both childish and amusing.) I don’t know you–or your personality. I can only speak based on what your posts reflect. And from several months of you posting on this forum, it is self-evident that you are an ardent fan of UC-Berkeley. It doesn’t matter any assertions to the contrary. But, RML, there is nothing wrong with that. That’s simply your bias, which is perfectly OK. To deny it, on the other hand, is a bit silly, RML. To purport to be the objective defender of Haas, in your case, is absurd. Haas is not an elite school (regardless or whether we mean to 3, top 5 or top 8). Is Haas a top ten school? For some people and in some rankings. Does it matter much? Not really.</p>

<p>You sound like a smart kid, RML, albeit not a very wise one. No one is attacking you personally, except perhaps insofar as showing how your lack of experience in the business world translates into your flawed reasoning. But that’s not an attack, it’s just a fact, which is self-evident to anyone who knows.</p>

<p>In the end, is Yale SOM > Haas right now? For me, yes; For you, no. Do we have experience in the business world? For me, yes; for you, no. Should you defer to knowledgeable people on this (the MBA) forum? Probably.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I don’t know fast you drive, but New Haven is nowhere near only 90 minutes from Boston by any reasonably lawful speed. Try about 2.5 hours. Nor is New Haven ‘right next’ to the Connecticut hedge fund Gold Coast. The Greenwich/Stamford area is about an hour away. </p>

<p>Look, the truth of the matter is that New Haven, frankly, really isn’t a particularly great location. Granted, it has improved over the last decade or so. But it’s still not that great. That area is still an economically depressed area of Connecticut, and you have to take annoyingly long car or train rides to travel to places that are actually nice. Nor am I the only one saying so - many Yalies will freely admit that they liked everything about their school except the location. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I’d like to think I’m quite knowledgeable about the subject, and I don’t think Yale SOM is a top 10 business school nor is it better than Haas. At least right now. Granted, it could achieve both in the future. But the future is not now. Yale SOM has great potential, but only time will tell whether it will exploit that potential.</p>

<p>Wildflower, as usual, you are veering away from the topic. You post was - again - about me. It was not about the topic. Do you always debate like that? Hmnnn…</p>

<p>Again, I’d like to see how Yale SOM is superior to Berkeley-Haas from a RELIABLE, very EXPERIENCED guy like you.</p>

<p>rml;</p>

<p>I never said either school was better, I said they are very close to one another. So the majority of your response is meaningless. Re the new campus, I wasn’t aware it was delayed, my mistake. </p>

<p>Sakky;</p>

<p>In terms of location. I am a fast driver, google maps puts New Haven to Boston at 2:20, I would do it quite a bit quicker. I don’t see how a few minutes here and there matters much though. New Haven to NYC is 97 minutes by google maps. Less than an hour from the major CT HFs is pretty close IMO. Certainly closer than other schools. I personally think New Haven is a dump, but its proximity to NYC a plus. Also, have you been to Sally’s Pizza? Best thin crust I’ve ever had.</p>

<p>All of that said, Yale SOM has a long way to go if it is to compete with the real top schools.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I’m not really sure you could. You would to traverse through the ridiculous Hartford I-91/84 interchange, which is no joke, especially during rush hour. Suffice it to say that Boston is pretty darn far from New Haven, and certainly not a commute that anybody could reasonably make on a daily basis. </p>

<p>While certainly New York is closer, I wouldn’t exactly call that a reasonable commute either. If you’re going to drive in, then you have to put up with the fiendishly frustrating task of finding parking (or else paying through the nose for it). If you’re going to take the bus or the train, then you have to return as the bus/train schedule dictates, or else find a hotel for the night. Either way, this is not a simple endeavor. </p>

<p>Put another way, the distance between New Haven and New York is almost the same as the distance between Philadelphia and New York, and not too many people in Philly just ‘decide’ to head to New York on a whim. I would hardly say that Philadelphia enjoys proximity to New York. </p>

<p>Look, the point simply is this. New Haven is relatively isolated by any reasonable standard. If your goal is to enjoy the amenities of New York, then the answer is to actually live in New York. Go to Columbia which, at least right now, is still a better B-school than is Yale SOM. Granted, that may change in the future, but I don’t know that you can base your career decisions on whether a school might improve in the future.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I am not debating with you, RML.</p>

<p>Sakky;</p>

<p>If you think I’m lying, you can ride with me next time I head down to New York from
Boston (I go by New Haven). I’m not promising 90 minutes to New Haven, but it won’t be 2.3 hrs either.</p>

<p>More importantly, you are referring to traveling for leisure, I am referring to recruiting (which maybe I didn’t make clear). I agree that people in New Haven aren’t going to Boston/NYC hang out for a night. What I am saying is that NYC recruiters are more likely to go to Yale than say, UMichigan because of its proximity. Also, it would be easier to interview at a HF in Boston/Greenwich because of the relatively short drive from New Haven.</p>

<p>I never equated Yale SOM to Columbia, clearly Columbia a better business school in a better location.</p>