Forbes rankings!! are they serious?!

College Search & Selection
21

<p>Hey, it’s better than Gourman’s. ;)</p>

22

<p>Take the rankings with a complete grain of salt. They’re put together by an eccentric retired econ professor from Ohio University–Richard Vedder. His ultimate goal for higher education is the complete end to public universities in this country: he wants an end to all state and federal assistance for higher education and an end to all student financial aid.</p>

<p>In his dream world, there would be private colleges for the economic elite and in-house corporate trade schools for the rest of us.</p>

23

<p>Mini, if you compare Gourman’s overall ranking to Forbes, I think most people will agree that Gourman is more plausible, although both are severely flawed. Of course, I am referring to the respective ranking of research universities. Forbes does a better job of giving LACs credit, but mixing LACs with research universities is a non-starter if you ask me. Below is a side-by-side comparson between Forbes and Gourman’s top 40 undergraduate research universities:</p>

<p>FORBES

  1. Princeton University
  2. California Institute of Technology
  3. Harvard University
  4. Yale University
  5. Columbia University
  6. Northwestern University
  7. Massachusetts Institute of Technology
  8. University of Chicago
  9. Stanford University
  10. Brown University
  11. Brandeis University
  12. Boston College
  13. Rice University
  14. University of Virginia
  15. Tufts University
  16. College of William and Mary
  17. University of Pennsylvania
  18. University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill
  19. Wake Forest University
  20. University of California-Berkeley
  21. Georgetown University
  22. University of Notre Dame
  23. Duke University
  24. Johns Hopkins University
  25. Emory University
  26. Vanderbilt University
  27. University of California-Loes Angeles
  28. SUNY-Binghampton
  29. Cornell University
  30. Dartmouth College
  31. Tulane University
  32. Washington University-St Louis
  33. University of Illinois-Urbana Champaign
  34. University of Michigan
  35. University of Florida
  36. University of Georgia
  37. University of Washington
  38. Southern Methodist University
  39. James Madison University
  40. University of Mississippi</p>

<p>GOURMAN:

  1. Princeton University (2 for 2!)
  2. Harvard University
  3. University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
  4. Yale University
  5. Stanford University
  6. Cornell University
  7. University of California-Berkeley
  8. University of Chicago
  9. University of Wisconsin-Madison
  10. University of California-Los Angeles
  11. Massachusetts Institute of Technology
  12. California Institute of Technology
  13. Columbia University
  14. Northwestern University
  15. University of Pennsylvania
  16. University of Notre Dame
  17. Duke University
  18. Brown University
  19. Johns Hopkins University
  20. Dartmouth College
  21. University of Illinois-Urbana Champaign
  22. University of Minnesota-Twin Cities
  23. Rice University
  24. Carnegie Mellon University
  25. University of California-San Diego
  26. University of Washington
  27. Indiana University-Bloomington
  28. University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill
  29. Washington University-St Louis
  30. SUNY-Buffalo
  31. Tufts University
  32. Vanderbilt University
  33. Ohio State University
  34. University of Virginia
  35. University of California-Irvine
  36. Pennsylvania State University-University Park
  37. New York University
  38. University of California-Davis
  39. University of Rochester
  40. University of Iowa</p>

<p>In Forbes’ rankings, I can think of 12 or so research universities that are seriously (more than 10 spots) out of sequence. In Gourman’s rankings, I can think of 8.</p>

<p>Like I said, both rankings are very flawed, but I think Forbes is slightly more flawed!</p>

24

<p>Right. And Wayne State University is 35-40 places better than Swarthmore and Williams. Of course, Gourman has no criteria that he is willing to divulge, and hasn’t visited a campus in 12 years.</p>

25

<p>Mini, I am not saying that Gourman is good, but when comparing research universities, he is slightly more accurate than Forbes.</p>

26

<p>I would have no way of knowing. Neither would he.</p>

27

<p>I looked at Forbes’s ranking just for the publics. As the list below shows, it actually doesn’t look that far off when you consider how these colleges rank in their various categories. The only one that looks really out of line is SUNY Binghampton. </p>

<p>Forbes Rank , Public School</p>

<p>1 , US Military Acad
2 , US Air Force
3 , New College
4 , US Naval Acad
5 , U Virginia
6 , W&M
7 , U North Carolina
8 , UC Berkeley
9 , VMI
10 , UCLA
11 , SUNY Binghampton
12 , St. Mary’s (MD)
13 , Mary Washington
14 , U Illinois
15 , U Michigan
17 , U Florida
17 , US Coast Guard
18 , The Citadel
19 , U Georgia
20 , U Washington</p>

<p>Separated now by Category</p>

<p>Forbes Rank, Public, USNWR Rank, USNWR Category</p>

<p>2 , US Air Force , 1 , Bacculaureate Colleges
17 , US Coast Guard , 2 , Bacculaureate Colleges</p>

<p>1 , US Military Acad , 1 , LAC
3 , New College , 5 , LAC
4 , US Naval Acad , 2 , LAC
9 , VMI , 3 , LAC
12 , St. Mary’s (MD) , 4 , LAC</p>

<p>13 , Mary Washington , 7 , Masters
18 , The Citadel , 5 , Masters</p>

<p>5 , U Virginia , 2 , National Universities
6 , W&M , 6 , National Universities
7 , U North Carolina , 5 , National Universities
8 , UC Berkeley , 1 , National Universities
10 , UCLA , 3 , National Universities
11 , SUNY Binghampton , 34 , National Universities
14 , U Illinois , 10 , National Universities
15 , U Michigan , 4 , National Universities
17 , U Florida , 17 , National Universities
19 , U Georgia , 20 , National Universities
20 , U Washington , 11 , National Universities</p>

28

<p>Alexandre, I’d probably share most of your intuitions. For instance I’d agree Dartmouth and Cornell look too low. However, how do we really know which of these rankings is inaccurate by 8 and which is inaccurate by 12? As far as I know, there is no Royal Observatory of College Rankings to help us calibrate the Forbes and Gourman clocks.</p>

<p>If some really original and marvelous new ranking method came out, based on exclusive accurate data, chances are we’d see some surprises. </p>

<p>Until then, we each have our own mental model of what the good schools are. If there are too many departures from that mental model in a new ranking, we tend to discount it unless we can be convinced their methods and data are really great. Maybe a better approach would be to try to understand why Forbes says CalTech is #2 and Gourman says it’s #12. Though as Mini points out that’s impossible if Gourman won’t disclose criteria.</p>

29

<p>Gee, I never knew Swarthmore and Williams were research universities?</p>

30

<p>They are included in overall rankings in both the Forbes and Gourman reports.</p>

31

<p>Hmmmm…what if Forbes is correct? Would that change anyone’s mind as to where to attend college? Would it make you look closer at a more affordable college? Will this hurt the top colleges because they will no longer collect $1 - 2,000,000 per year in application fees?</p>

32

<p>So Forbes’ list is so ridiculous because they try to make a legitimate list instead of catering to everyone’s predefined notions of prestige by changing the formula each year like USNWR?</p>

<p>Damn them. THEY R DEVILS!!!1</p>

33

<p>I’ll have fun telling my sister, a Dartmouth grad, that her school ranked lower than Wabash and Center College. She wasted those 4 years at Dartmouth when she could have gone to those others! :wink: Poor schlep.</p>

34

<p>“student evaluations of professors from Ratemyprofessors.com (25 percent)” This is where many of the unexpected results come from. You have to wonder if, in the first place if the dissatisfied students might not be more likely to use this rating system than the satisfied students, and you have to know that some schools have their own, non-public, rating systems in place and do not use Ratemyprofessors to any measurable degree. Forbes actually acknowledged that fact in response to complaints last year.</p>

<p>In fact, SwissMiss, with respect to Dartmouth, see this: <a href=“http://thedartmouth.com/2008/08/19/news/forbes/[/url]”>http://thedartmouth.com/2008/08/19/news/forbes/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

35

<p>^Yeah, that is a bad category. Some schools may get bumped up for having friendly teachers that don’t give out much work and have easy tests, and vice-versa.</p>

<p>Milestone: post 666 ;)</p>

36

<p>I wish the Forbes ranking would show people how ridiculous it is to rank colleges and universities in the first place. What if Forbes had been first? What if USNWR were the “ridiculous” rankings? </p>

<p>Despite the seemingly objective nature of rankings, including USNWR, they are subjective in what they measure and how they weigh.</p>

37

<p>Thanks, Ohmadre. I followed your link and read how Forbes calculated their rankings. What a bunch of %@$^#*.<br>
They could have done just as well if they’d used a Ouija board or a crystal ball. ;)</p>

38

<p>The Forbes beauty pageant is ridiculous. But the USNWR beauty pageant is the gold standard.</p>

<p>They are both worthless. The only best schools are the best schools for you. Burn these magazines. Stop cow-towing to the peer pressure. And find out what is best for you and your student.</p>

39

<p>I’d suggest that you take any list with a grain of salt … including the one on my blog. No list is going to tell you what’s best for you, since there are many factors to consider. The Internet is your buddy here, read what the magazine says to explain how they ranked the schools, and by the way you should know that Fortune, Forbes, BusinessWeek, US News, and so on all have different rankings, which is another sign that they are looking for different things. For instance, here in Texas an Ivy League diploma is less impressive in engineering, law, or medicine than such degrees from Texas, Rice, Texas A&M or Baylor, and employers in California would see Stanford and UCLA as much better. So the best adivice I can say, is that you want to do your homework and figure out what you want first, then see who can deliver it.</p>