My son is a HS Sophomore and so far has taken 2 years of Latin plus Bio and Chem. He is still changing his mind frequently but is leaning towards majoring in finance or economics. He’s definitely interested in international business, internships, etc. He’s looking at T20 public flagships.
–He is currently set to take Latin 3 next year. But he doesn’t want to take AP Latin and plans to take Mandarin 1 his senior year (new offering at his school, was not available when he started HS). Does this make sense? Should he switch now so he get two years of Mandarin or is 3/1 a better split? (Note: He loves his Latin teacher. She’s one of the teachers he will ask for recs.)
–He is thinking of taking AP Chem and AP Bio next year and AP CompSci senior year and skipping Physics all together. How important is it to fit in Physics? To take AP Physics he would have to drop another AP course, or he might be able to fit in Honors Physics but it would be a very heavy load for senior year. (Note: he’s interested in Bio and Chem. Not so much in Physics but he would do fine. Already taken AP Calc BC.)
Coming from a similar situation. DD is taking Japanese in addition to Latin. Mandarin, like Japanese, moves at a much slower pace due to its complexity in writing than Latin or the other more popular western languages. So 1 yr is not going to provide as much language knowledge vs sticking with AP Latin.
To me personally 4 yrs ending with a higher proficiency looks better than 3 +1
If he is not interested in pursuing STEM I do not see a reason to take AP Physics, but I would make sure he has all 3 sciences covered in HS (Bio, Chem, Phys).
Honestly, best is always to make sure you take the 5 cores all 4 yrs of HS (Engl, Math, Civics/SocStudies, Science, ForeignLang).
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Thank you. Our school in on Trimesters and AP are only offered Tri 1-2. So students are limited to 4 AP each year plus 2 other non-AP courses. So he has to pick 4 from senior options: (Latin, Lang/Comp, Micro/Macro, Gov, Physics, Comp Sci). AP students have almost nothing to take third Trimester. I wish the school district would switch to semesters.
Schools that require/expect 3+ years of a foreign language want to see in-depth study on one topic. 2 years of A and 2 years of B does not equal 4 years of one of them.
For a school that requires 4 years, 3+1 may not meet the expectation. Even for those only recommending 4, it may fall short of other applicants.
For schools that require/recommend three, three plus one could be fine.
On the sciences, the recommendation is typically to be sure to cover the big three, then add AP courses to the extent possible. For an attractive application, I’d recommend fitting in Physics.
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I’ve never seen a college that requires 4 years of foreign language. I can’t imagine it is preferable to take AP Latin over say AP Economics or AP Lang/Comp? I mean, no student can take everything. Wouldn’t Mandarin be better for a business major than Latin?
I would recommend looking at the (possible) language requirement at the schools your son is interested in attending. Most of the colleges my daughter looked at had some sort of language requirement to fulfill during college (or test out of via AP score and/or placement exam).
If your son wants to do Mandarin instead of Latin, he should feel free to change languages. If he doesn’t want to continue to study any language in college, but wants to go to a college with a language requirement, he may want to suck it up and continue with Latin to have the best chance of testing out of a possible language requirement.
I’ll check the requirements. He does want to switch to Mandarin in college and thought he would just get a 1 year head start. Latin doesn’t satisfy most business schools requirements of a modern language anyway.
If he wants to study Mandarin in college, I would suggest going 2+2 with Latin and Mandarin (his GC can explain Mandarin being a late addition at the high school if his GC thinks such an explanation is necessary to the schools he targets). The more exposure he can get before college language classes the better.
I think a lot of students are unpleasantly surprised by the fast pace of foreign language classes in college; if he isn’t a ‘natural’ language learner he will only appreciate the deeper base he can get from two years of Mandarin before starting college.
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My accounting and finance majors didn’t take any language in college, just 4 years of Spanish in high school.
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But the OP’s son is interested in international business, where showing language proficiency would be important.
@Techno13, Are there any summer language classes available in your area (at a community college, if not through his high school?) Would be nice if he could do Latin 3 (or equivalent) this summer, AP Latin next year, and then get started with Mandarin senior year (and that way get the great recommendation from the teacher). Or, get started with Mandarin this summer and continue through Mandarin 3 in senior year?
My D will not major in STEMor business but I urged her to take physics just to cover her bases. Her high school doesn’t offer honors physics so she had to take AP physics 1. She managed to make an A even though she isn’t very mathy and didn’t particularly like it. AP physics 1 is algebra-based. Since your son is already taking AP calculus BC as a sophomore, he shouldn’t have any trouble doing well in AP physics 1, even if it’s not his favorite subject!
Another thought…if your son can’t do summer school in foreign language maybe he could take a summer physics class (honors or AP 1) and then have room in his schedule for AP bio and AP chem? I think having a rigorous STEM-heavy record can compensate somewhat for a lighter schedule in FL (or vice-versa) but if he’s applying to competitive programs he probably shouldn’t show deficits in both areas (I.e., no physics and 2+2 or 3+1 FL).
He is working this summer. Mandarin 1 is being offered for the first time next year, so he couldn’t get past Mandarin 2 before graduating. He could probably do AP Latin online somewhere next summer but nothing in person in our area.
I guess what is boils down to is what AP level course can one skip? Give our district’s scheduling no student can take everything. If he takes AP Latin he skips an AP science/English/History. It would seem to me that giving up AP Latin for AP CompSci would be a no brainer given the relative utility of the courses. No? The schools he is targeting appear to require 2 FL, recommend 2-4 FL, require 2-4 Science, recommend 3-4 Science. And all this is just planning, at the end of the day, there’s usually only 1 section of these courses and if they conflict you have to choose anyway. Lots of students can’t get the course load they want. Surely colleges don’t penalize students for that?
Could he take Mandarin 1 junior year, then dual enroll in College Mandarin 1&2 senior year? That’d cover the requirement since College Mandarin 1 covers HS 1+2 and College level 2 covers Level 3. It’d also set him well for any college placement.
Depending on the college there may be a foreign language requirement he’ll need to fulfill and the combination above would either get him done or require just one more semester.
Chinese is MUCH MUCH more difficult than Latin, so that it would take about 2 years to learn what he learned in Latin over 6 months (US Defense classification). It may be more efficient to pick up a spoken language, such as Spanish, French, or Italian, that has common roots with Latin (all three are easier than Latin.)
In order to get a “useful” level in Chinese, he’d need to take it all 4 years in college and study abroad for a semester.
The most selective 4-year colleges expect 4 years or AP, but most selective colleges will expect 3 years.
Can he take “regular” or “conceptual” Physics next year? He’d then take AP CS senior year.
The usefulness of the 5 core subjects is the way they stretch and challenge the brain, rather than their practicality. Then, the 6th (or 7th) class can be something that reinforces an interest or prepares for one’s major, etc. That’s where AP CS would fit in.
Your son should definitely take AP Econ (micro¯o), AP English Language, AP Gov. Then as a non core class, AP CS.
Completed with a math class and a foreign language class (dual enrollment if offered).
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Interesting. He will have to give the Mandarin some thought. I’d prefer he stick with Latin and take Spanish or German in college. I think there’s a way (at least in theory, for him to take AP Latin and Honors Physics plus all the other AP stuff, possibly having to take “regular” Civics instead of AP. What actually gets scheduled is not in our hands though. Thanks everyone!
the combination I suggested also works for other languages and has the benefits of allowing him to have a few credits under his belt if he wants to study International Business (fluency in a language and its culture will be essential. I’d suggest looking into business with Canada, depending on the fields).
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Highest level completed is the important part. So level 4 (or AP) > level 3 > level 2. Two languages to level 2 = level 2.
Taking some physics (does not have to be AP) is generally preferable at the most selective colleges. If he likes math and is good at it, physics may actually be more interesting to him than biology or chemistry.
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He may want to find out if level 2 in the high school will give him enough skill to get placement higher than the first semester course at the colleges that he is likely to attend.
Note that, for English speakers, Mandarin is considered a harder language than Spanish or French, so it may take more courses to reach a desired level of proficiency in Mandarin than in Spanish or French. For example, the intensive language courses at the DLI are 36 weeks long for Spanish or French, but 64 weeks long for Mandarin.
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I guess it depends how you interpret Harvard’s “recommendation” of four years, just like they “recommend” four years of English and four years of Math, and
An ideal four-year preparatory program includes …four years of one foreign language.
with the caveat “you may encounter unique circumstances, such as resource limitations”.
I interpret it similar to how they previously “recommended” Subject Tests. (See the now-defunct “Subject Tests aren’t truly optional” thread.)
Also note that they specific “one foreign language” and “a single foreign language”.
Similarly, Princeton
we expect students will complete the following courses before beginning study at Princeton: …
Four years of one foreign language
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But he not even remotely interested in Harvard. He’s looking at public flagships.
And since I have two other IBD students I’ll note that if you choose SL foreign language you only get three years in. And I don’t think Harvard turns it’s nose up at IBD students.
IB SL foreign language= AP Level = level 5. (It’s worth taking the AP test since SL rarely gives credit).
IB HL= post AP level.
For usual public flagships, level 3 is sufficient. For UVA, UNC, top UC’s, and foe honors colleges, it wouldn’t.
Another separate issue is that he’ll have to learn a world language if he wants to work in international business.
IB SL and HL foreign language courses (as well as AP foreign language courses) are typically seen as level (year) 4 or higher.
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