<p>Colleges have some nerve, don't they, to require that their students do well on the SAT English sections and then make them learn from professors and teaching assistants with a poor command of the language.</p>
<p>It's cheaper.</p>
<p>This has become quite an interesting thread. An individual's problem experienced by a freshman turns out to be the "tip of the iceberg" of larger global/academic/technology/training issues. </p>
<p>My D noticed at a social with her American boyfriend, who has begun as a grad student at an Ivy in Computer Science, that there are many, or did she say, "mostly"?, foreign-born students in the program. He came from a very humane LAC, and is always in search of the "interesting research project." Her friend is on the fence as to whether he'll finish the PhD or be like many others who are picked off by industry along the way. I didn't understand the issue when we had a meal together recently, so this thread is helpful to me personally. I told him that he was fortunate that he wasn't "in it for the money" and in no hurry to buy a car or house (he just isn't). He's very much intellectually driven. THen I recalled an earlier conversation that happened in our own house, when he said that his family didn't want him to be a professor but instead to "help people" by helping to discover medical cures and so on, using his mind for scientific purpose but to heal. Since our family is a bunch of teachers, from grade school through college, I suggested that a great teacher also "helps people." THe learning in the classroom is a "sacred task" (said I) and if he can make it work for all the students who sit in front of him, he has also helped them meaningfully. I don't think anyone had ever talked to him like this.
So I don't know what would make a student in his position stick with the university training all the way to PhD. He is truly on-the-fence now and will see how it unfolds, what the opportunities are.
I wonder, then, who is responsible for promoting to an American-born scientist, with research potential both in industry or academia, to stay in academia? Don't say it will certainly become "all about the money" for him one day; there are actually people who are hardwired differently. Are the research problems in the university more or less interesting than those from industry?
Can the university find other motivators to clearly tell a grad student "on the fence" that yes, staying in academics is better than running to industry? </p>
<p>One issue seems to be that industry offers a great salary and exciting project to a grad student midway through the PhD program. Then it's a matter of leaving at that moment for the short-term monetary or intellectual reward, never completing the PhD, or stay on for the PhD. </p>
<p>And no, I don't think there will be a single class in education, adult pedagogy or anything for him, and that makes me burn angrily. At least the theory of adult pedagogy should be thrown in as one class, regardless of language background! </p>
<p>On a different direction, less abstract and maybe more helpful for the immediate need, do any students have successful techniques for handling these situation? Terwitt suggested going as a group to the teacher directly, but did so with the confidence of age. Tell him to slow down, and I'd add: publish or blackboard a list of key terms. Others said read the textbook in advance. This could be a worthy thread in a student section of CC, although those threads are frightening at times. Man, they are so HARD on each other! They talk nice when they come into our room..</p>
<p>p3t - the choice of industry over academia is a difficult decision. My H initially preferred the academic route for one main reason (and other smaller ones): you have more control over the kind of research you want to do - you aren't being told by a company what projects are on or off due to outside economic influences. My H undoubtedly prefers the work in the lab over managing other people, etc. However, as mentioned in #60, he did not enjoy the teaching requirements of a university (sorry p3t), and knew that post Ph.D. he would need at least another two years of post-doc work (he chose to do one). Then until you are tenured, it's like living the life of a glorified grad student.</p>
<p>Industry - much more money, and the abililty for more profit-producing promotions. The pharma he works for provides a separate recognition program for scientists who choose the non-managerial route and wish to stay in the lab. They realize they need good scientists to stay in the lab and have found a way to reward them the same as if they were moving up the managerial ladder with its perks.</p>
<p>Although I think he has regrets from time to time, I think he realizes he made the best choice for him - he is very focused on his research and sees other job-related tasks as frustrations (teaching would be a frustration for him). He found a sort-of compromise for himself - several years ago he became connected with a Northwestern University prof, and now attends their research group meetings most weeks in the evening. He knows he is appreciated for the academic exercise that takes place in a university setting, but doesn't have the responsibility of teaching.</p>
<p>While my H's english is perfect, had he gone the academic route, I think there might be a lot of unhappy former students out there. Better to save the teaching jobs for those who want to teach, even if their communication skills aren't as refined (TAs who are teaching only because they need the stipend and don't enjoy teaching at all are another story).</p>
<p>P3T - one very obvious solution that hasn't been mentioned - office hours to clarify any missing points. A student may find that utilizing office hours, and getting to know the nuances of a professor may actually benefit everyone. This is when and how many professors begin to take certain students under their wings (as was the case with my H when he was an undergrad and deciding between pre-med and chem).</p>
<p>Marite: I know that colleges use the H1-B visas frequently for professors. (Google -- H1-B visa college professors.) Perhaps they are not tenured positions? Or they could be "adjunct" faculty? Either way, they're in the classrooms/lecture halls and I'd bet a million dollars ;) they aren't making as much as the US born profs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Now, he is surrounded by english as a second language co-workers, and has no problem with it, because he realizes these are the brightest of the bunch.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And isn't it sad that this is so? Where are the bright Americans? </p>
<p>In math and science, you can be an undergraduate CA in your sophomore year, doing essentially the work of graduate TAs. That's how short of teaching staff the math and sciences are.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Other critics have argued that H-1B programs are distorting market forces within the U.S. by incentivising Indian nationals to flood U.S. graduate schools to earn Advanced degrees solely for the purpose of obtaining work visas, and at the same time de-incentivising U.S. citizens from earning technical degrees or continuing on to earn graduate degrees due to applicant pool flooding. For instance, at the undergraduate level, US-born engineering students constitute upwards of 90-95% of the student population, with a student pool that is larger than the number of foreign born nationals who apply to engineering graduate schools to earn advanced degrees. Yet, upwards of 50% of the advanced degrees conferred in technology are to foreign-born nationals.[7]
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This suggests to me that the American-trained engineering graduates (holders of B.Sc.) are not able to compete with the foreign-born graduates for slots in postgraduate programs or prefer not to apply to postgraduate programs but go on the job market right after college.</p>
<p>Weenie:
You are right, it is possible to hire profs on H1B visas. However, salaries are not pegged to visa status but to professorial status, i.e. an assistant professor, not matter what nationality, earns less than an associate professor who earns less than a professor. At some top universities, assistant professors in math are hired for a term of 3 years then have to leave. I don't know why, since the regular pattern is for assistant profs in other disciplines are hired for a maximum of 8 years then either get promoted or must leave.</p>
<p>Thanks for all of the responses. </p>
<p>
[quote]
And why should Americans set the standard (of English language) anyway?
[/quote]
It's that the professors are in America teaching to Americans and therefore need to be able to convey their material to Americans. It goes beyond accents. My example of the French professor includes her taking long periods of time to just be able to say something because she was translating in her mind from French to English first. Meanwhile the entire class is just sitting there waiting for the words to come out of her mouth.</p>
<p>Not all of the non-native English speaking professors are unintelligible despite their accents. I'm only referring to the ones who are unintelligible although I'm also wondering why there are so many from foreign countries.</p>
<p>
[quote]
...professors in math, science...
[/quote]
Yes, I think the ones with the biggest issue have been math, science, engineering professors. Both Ds are CS majors in the school engineering at their colleges and are taking lots of math, engineering, science courses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
...get used to accents over time...
[/quote]
Yes, one does become accustomed to accents over time and can usually understand better. I work with heavily accented people all the time (Indian, Japanese, Chinese, etc.) and I can understand them better once I get an 'ear' for it with them but there are some whose accents are so heavy that this is very difficult. It's more difficult if you only meet with them for the occasional hour or so (like for a class).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Drop the class. If required switch sections, wait a year,...
[/quote]
I agree with this but sometimes it's very difficult to do logistically such as with a required math course that's only available in that time slot. For the French teacher in my example that's what almost everyone did. My point is, why should they be forced to just because of something as basic as the prof can't convey information in reasonable English?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have heard of this problem chiefly with TAs.
[/quote]
Yes - they've had TAs with the problem as well but it seems more egregious when it's the prof.</p>
<p>
[quote]
...grow some more American mathematicians and scientists and most of the problems would disappear
[/quote]
Is it really that there aren't enough American profs in the math, science, engineering realm or is it that they're more expensive or perhaps just not as eminent in their field? Regarding eminence, it seems that ability to speak in passable English is more important for the undergrad course than extreme eminence in the field (assuming a reasonable level of competence in their field which I'd think most PHDs would be).</p>
<p>
[quote]
as a parent paying tuition it would infuriate me if my son's learning were hampered because of a language barrier
[/quote]
I'm not happy with it as you can tell. For a couple of the unintelligible profs it boils down to just being able to teach one's self with perhaps some assistance from TAs and other students. This isn't so easy in the higher level math, science, engineering courses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why can't schools have teachers who can speak intelligible English?
There aren't enough of them. Why? You tell me. The solution? Avoid hirin anyone who has a thick accent. If there aren't enough teachers or TAs to staff lectures and sections, too bad.</p>
<p>I'm sorry to sound unsympathetic but this is a problem that has been in the making for many many years. It's a wholly Made in America problem. No university is looking to hire foreigners over American citizens.
[/quote]
Only part of my question was why there aren't more qualified American profs in some of these fields. I guess it must come down to supply and demand and the ability of colleges to pay wages competetive to industry for these profs. the other part though is that regardless of the country the prof comes from the college should place more emphasis on their ability to be understood. There are plenty of Europeans, Asians, Indians, and others who CAN be understood but there are some who can't. I think those who can't should be disqualified as a teaching candidate at the undergrad level regardless of any other achievements they might have.</p>
<p>There are foreign-born professors on H-1B Visas( my husband was one) but most of them started as grad students on F-1 Visas. It's practically impossible to get a green card right after being a student. So you get an H-1B which allows you to work and then apply for a green card. To be hired for a teaching position from abroad you have to be a bona fide star in your field.</p>
<p>Thanks, parabella.</p>
<p>uc's dad:
[quote]
the other part though is that regardless of the country the prof comes from the college should place more emphasis on their ability to be understood
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, and it would exacerbate the shortage of profs who are both intelligible and knowledgeable.</p>
<p>From wikipedia:
[quote]
Yet, upwards of 50% of the advanced degrees conferred in technology are to foreign-born nationals.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That represents a huge proportion of potential teachers!</p>
<p>Before we all wring our hands and moan over the exodus of talented scientists from academia to industry, let me issue a caveat: the times they are a-changin'. I don't know about all scientific fields, but I do know something about chemistry. Due to numerous layoffs and site closures in pharma, there are more MS and PhD chemists out there than there are positions. I personally know more than 20 such chemists still looking for full-time positions a full 8 months after my site closed. Most of us that have experience (say, more than 5 years post-MS or post-PhD) are now in different careers - many are certifying as teachers, so who knows?</p>
<p>Teriwtt - I can guess where your H works. Good luck to him! I just don't think that the employment out look for industrial chemists is so hot right now. Guess where my previous employer is pouring its R&D preclinical money? India and China. I used to do a lot of science outreach in local middle and high schools, but I no longer extol the glories of being a working chemist. Too much uncertainty right now, especially if you're looking for job security.</p>
<p>Sorry for the disgruntled hi-jack. Back to your discussion!</p>
<p>So maybe it's easier for foreign students to go through grad school because they have an easier time understanding their heavily accented profs. Just a thought.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are professors and grad students from parts of the US or the English-speaking world that others find difficult to understand. Should they not get jobs teaching?
[/quote]
I'm not referring to someone with an accent - I'm referring to someone with such an extreme accent that almost no one in the class can understand them. I'm not referring to somewhat difficult to understand but rather, almost impossible to understand and if they can't be reasonably understood, then yes, I don't think they should be teaching. I doubt that there are any profs/grad students from any part of the US whose accents would be almost impossible to understand by almost everyine in the class. For prfs from other countries such as my French or Asian prof example, they should by all means continue to teach but just not here until they improve their English ability to a reasonable level. It's fine to still be accented, even quite accented, but it should be intelligible to their target audience - students in the USA.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Frankly, this is one reason that he is not in a research based U to begin with.
[/quote]
Both of my Ds are in colleges with heavy research so this might be part of the equation. Maybe they should just change their rules requiring all professors to teach and allow some of the researchers, especially if they can't reasonably speak English, just do research for a few years until their accents are more understandable.</p>
<p>
[quote]
sometimes you are going to have to work to understand a teacher
[/quote]
Sure - they already do this for many. What I'm referring to are the few 'impossible' ones where no one in the class understands them - usually from a prof who just arrived from Asia before this class or in my other example the 'visiting prof' from France who was only here to teach a summer session. The student has no way to know whether the prof can speak intelligibly or not until after they're in the class at which point it's already a problem. They shouldn't have to contend with this since being able to speak English reasonably understandably should be a basic requirement. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Why? Because these are tough fields. Because it's hard to get jobs in academia. Because the private sector pays better.
[/quote]
But the second statement isn't consistent with the premise. If it's that difficult to find qualified individuals then it should be easy for the qualified individuals to obtain the jobs (demand > supply). I agree with the other points.</p>
<p>
[quote]
They pulled her from the class in the 7th week and enrolled her in language improvement classes taught in another department and substituted experienced teachers to complete the class
[/quote]
I commend that U for recognizing there was an issue and doing something about it.</p>
<p>Both my Ds have complained about foreign born math profs who can't speak English well; two different schools a thousand miles apart. The irony is that their favorite math teacher in hs was their Calculus teacher who was from Iran. When my oldest called her hs teacher about how to deal with the college prof from Jamaica, the Iranian teacher almost fell over laughing. His advice was to sit in the very front of the room directly in front of the prof and watch him while he speaks. Also read the math book the night before and again the night of the lecture. He predicted it would only take 2 weeks max to "understand" the new prof. And it did.</p>
<p>
[quote]
...he said that his family didn't want him to be a professor but instead to "help people" by helping to discover medical cures and so on...</p>
<p>So I don't know what would make a student in his position stick with the university training all the way to PhD. He is truly on-the-fence now and will see how it unfolds, what the opportunities are.
[/quote]
But being a prof and helping people by discovering medical cures, etc. aren't mutually exclusive. One of my Ds (CS major) works in a genetics research bio lab where they're also doing bioinformatics to come up with new cures and medicines. CS profs are also involved in research in a lot of other areas helpful to people including medicine, the environment, security, etc.</p>
<p>There are many profs, maybe particularly those in engineering, computer science, biotech, and some other fields, who also have started companies, are on the boards of companies, are high-paid consultants to companies, own patents and collecting royalties, etc. and are doing quite well financially while still a professor. I'm not sure there are a lot of 'poor' professors in these fields at the top universities.</p>
<p>btw - D2's solution was to teach Calc 2 and 3 to herself by reading the proofs in the textbook. It also helped to go to her weekly recitation hour where she had a grad student who could speak English well. What she couldn't teach herself, the grad student taught her. She is now thinking about switching her major to math 'cause she is finding her engrg classes boring and hates Linear Algebra for Engineers. She's also thinking about Physics, which she loves. Unfortunately, she is no longer keen on engrg, but maybe it's a good thing she still likes math despite poor teaching at the college level.</p>
<p>scout59 - while we do feel somewhat secure (he's been there over 15 years), we are also realistic. No job comes with 100% job security. Now that we are empty-nesters, I often wonder if he would say screw it to industry and take a university position - he would have to gain some skills and confidence to return to the teaching arena, though. Despite the current environment in pharmas, he has head hunters calling him all the time. We have seen many layoffs at said pharma, chemists included, and have been blind-sided by them. Sometimes I think this is why he works 60-70 hour weeks - they'd be stupid to give up someone with that dedication (or maybe masochism!?!).</p>
<p>It would be interesting if he did ever choose to go to academia, if a university would overlook his lack of experience and passion for teaching to get a bright, reputable chemist who can speak good english.</p>
<p>teriwtt -- sad to say, ageism also affects the academia and I highly doubt anyone who is old enough to be a self-described empty nester would get a decent university position. By decent, I mean not a part-time adjunct with no benefits type of position. Those are available!</p>
<p>Marite:
"At some top universities, assistant professors in math are hired for a term of 3 years then have to leave. I don't know why, since the regular pattern is for assistant profs in other disciplines are hired for a maximum of 8 years then either get promoted or must leave."</p>
<p>Could that be a cost saving thing right there? I'm thinking, for instance, in the software world where H1-B visa holders are displacing workers with greater seniority (and higher pay). (As you can probably tell, I have a very bad attitude about the H1-B program. I think it's a gift to the corporate "suits" at the expense of highly trained and educated Americans.)</p>
<p>teriwitt, my biologist husband spends far more than 70 hours per week working. :( He doesn't actually teach that many courses, but it's all the other stuff - grant reading and writing and keeping up with the literature take up huge amounts of time.</p>