Fraternities

Parents Forum
21

<p>OSAL kicked ATO off campus for that. We do not currently have an ATO chapter.

[quote]
Indeed, we're still awed by your previous knowledgeable posts on this issue, especially your educated position of the use of alcohol during hazing rituals like the one at the UC at Boulder that claimed the life of Gordie Bailey.

[/quote]

IT WAS NOT THEIR RITUAL. I garauntee that nowhere in their ritual books does it talk about drinking or making people drink. Stop calling it "ritual."</p>

<p>
[quote]
U.S. vital statistics show that more than 20,000 people a year die from Alcohol induced causes. That figure does not include people killed in alcohol-related auto accidents or those who die of cirrhosis and other liver ailments. (<a href="http://www.drug-rehabs.org/content.php?cid=360&state=)%5B/url%5D%5B/quote%5D"&gt;http://www.drug-rehabs.org/content.php?cid=360&state=)

[/quote]
</a>
Clearly fraternities cause all the deaths from drinking in the US.</p>

<p>
[quote]
THXZPI636 ? What's with the "636"?

[/quote]

THX - Theta Chi Fraternity
ZPI - Zeta Pi Chapter (Old Dominion, oddly enough)
636 - Roster Number</p>

<p>636</p>

22

<p>I would recommend that doubleplay read the following monograph summarizing the research of the Harvard School of Public Health College Alcohol Study:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/cas/Documents/monograph_2000/cas_mono_2000.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/cas/Documents/monograph_2000/cas_mono_2000.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This quote from the monograph may be of particular interest:</p>

<p>"Two of five fraternity and sorority members are frequent binge drinkers, compared to one of five non-Greek students."</p>

23

<p>Because we know that NO ONE from Harvard drinks underage:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/05/27/ex_dean_says_harvard_run_like_day_care/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/05/27/ex_dean_says_harvard_run_like_day_care/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

24

<p>Shouldn't the message get back to how to look at the situation from an overall view, rather than turn the post into a ****ing match over booze? </p>

<p>Boozing happens in a frat and outside of frats, not every college death occurs in a frat house. Rather than cling so tightly to this one point offer several questions to ask or things to look out for. </p>

<p>Excessive boozing is a point to consider, now what else? Because if it's the only negative, that isn't much because someone can choose not to drink. If they choose not to drink, what else would be a negative guys? </p>

<p>I've seen alot watching my kid in a frat and there's alot more to it than this one horse ride... good and bad. What else do you have guys?</p>

25

<p>Good point OfM,</p>

<p>What I have gotten out of it from both an active and alumna standpoint is sisterhood. We have moved a lot due to H's military PCS moves and Kappa has always been there for me to find an instantaneous connection. Not all the fellow Kappas are exactly like me. We come from different schools, different professions, different backgrounds. What we have in common transcends these differences.</p>

26

<p>Holy moly, I guess I started something and I really didn’t mean to. I didn’t go Greek when I was in college, but I had friends in sororities and fraternities and I went to some parties. There was drinking, but there was drinking at every party. Beer and wine was legal at 18 so there was always a keg. I know it’s illegal now, but I’m sure it’s still common. So we’ve tried to instill a responsible attitude toward drinking. I was aware of binge drinking, passed out girls, date rape, all that when I was in school, but it happened in frat houses as well as apartments and dorms. I don’t want to be Pollyanish about it and say “my son would never…”!! But I still want to say “my son would never…”!! I’m just trying to get a reality check and (honestly) work through all this in my mind because it was so unexpected.</p>

27

<p>Thanks mother, </p>

<p>Or can I call you mom? :) </p>

<p>I was reluctant as any parent when my S started investigating frat life. I told him I wouldn't pay for it, all those snobby rich kids and what not. Well, he made his own decisions, paid his own money and joined. As I learned more about his "house" I began to like the idea more and more. He had upperclassmen guidence about professors, classes and activities on campus.
If he needed help with a subject, a brother was there to help out. He chose a frat that was about studies as well as parties. </p>

<p>He got his first experience with special olympics as a volunteer, he pounded nails framing a house for battered women, volunteered in an elementary classroom to help a brother during his student teaching time. He keeps a blog for the college for incoming freshmen, is part of the student advisory on his campus, participates in homecoming, learned how to play lacrosse as his frat brothers got him to come out to practice, and so on and so on..</p>

<p>The negatives (from a dad's perspective) the kitchen's a pit, wiping stuff down doesn't clean the grease build up on the counters or floor, it's like iceskating. Pots and pans are more than single use items. Plus pots and pans should be washed after use, not at the end of the week. There's a smell of butt because they make the freshmen clean the common areas, and none of these guys are good at it. The paint job is early nausea. Having had to spend a few days living there (S broken ankle-see lacrosse) my main complaint was "don't you guys ever sleep?" Somebody is always up till the wee hours in the morning, then sleeping in the common area all afternoon. Buying some toliet paper would be a good idea too. His mom has a real hard time walking in there. </p>

<p>Oh, and they drink and party several weekends. They require 3-4 brothers to remain sober at all times, look out for trouble(drink wise and sexual assualt wise), look out for one another and basically try to have a good time at nobody's expense. Maybe because my S looked with an open mind, compared choices (including not belonging), asked questions, he ended up in a pretty good situation. I know it's not like that on every campus, not even his, but I guess I raised him OK with enough wisedom to figure it out for himself. Oh, the rich kids in his frat.. not so snobby, somebody else did a good job raising their kids too.</p>

28

<p>The mom of a guy whose KID is in college? I feel old and I only graduated college in the mid 80s! :)</p>

<p>My greek story is as follows. I came from a Boston suburb where everyone was against the elitism of Greek Life but not of Ivies and MIT. My suburb sent A LOT of kids to these schools from our public high schools. My parents weren't Greek. I went to a school that was highly skewed M/F. All girls were invited everywhere, boys had to be freshmen or on a guestlist to get invited to fraternity parties. If I was a guy, I would've pledged freshman year, fall semester if I wanted a life. As a woman it wasn't as vital to pledge immediately. </p>

<p>I went through rush (the old name for recruitment), joined and never regretted it. My biological sister pledged my sorority at a different school, my brother pledged a fraternity at MIT.</p>

<p>College boys are not as clean as college women. The sorority houses at my college were very clean, the boys: not so much. I would see the same thing at the dorms. The male students' rooms and bathrooms were not as neat as the female rooms. It also depends if they have a cook anad/or housemother.</p>

<p>Please PM me as to where your boy goes to school and what fraternity he joined.</p>

29

<p>
[quote]
The second quotation is obviously from a post by THX on CC.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sort of. You did go out of your way to delete this line of it though:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yes it is horrible that anyone would die at such a young age.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And then to deny quoting me in a misleading way. Wow.</p>

<p>(<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2810843#post2810843%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2810843#post2810843&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>636</p>

30

<p>Now, Doubleplay, you see why there is an EEEKKKK in GGGRRRREEEKKK. (At least here on CC)
There are some terrible tragedies that have played out at frat houses, but some good things happen there, too. Like many others, I know a family who lost a child to frat house drinking/hazing, I also know a number of people who got developed strong friendships and memories through their Greek connections. That's the story.</p>

31

<p>
[quote]
Quote:
The second quotation is obviously from a post by THX on CC.<br>
Sort of. You did go out of your way to delete this line of it though:
Quote:
Yes it is horrible that anyone would die at such a young age.<br>
And then to deny quoting me in a misleading way. Wow.
(<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...43#post2810843%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...43#post2810843&lt;/a&gt;)
636

[/quote]
</p>

<p>/sigh - A quotation does not require copying the entire text from which the quoted text is extracted. That is why one person provides the source. </p>

<p>The line that was not quoted did not change one iota of the essence of the statement that followed it nor did it have much relevance.</p>

32

<p>Yes, eek in Greek and the difference between Northerners and Southerners in the acceptance and view of Greek life could create another Civil War. In the Boston area, frats are not highly regarded to put it mildly. Joining a frat is considered a major character flaw unless the frat meets certain tolerated criteria (as previously mentioned). In the South, frats are everywhere even if the college doesn't show you that side on the admissions tour. They are used to provide identity, status and a "place" in college society. Our son is in a frat - we were horrified by the instantaeous rushing and the prominance of frats on his campus. Being from the Boston area we never expected this to be a concern. Don't take comfort in a 30% rate of student frat participation when reality means that the only parties on campus are in the frat complex. The pressure to join a frat in the South is enormous. I don't doubt that it makes my son's social life better given the situation but I believe frats simply shouldn't exist on campus to start with. What is the benefit on a college campus? Certainly freshman rushing is outrageous. College should be a time to free oneself of the high school identity crisis and cliques. If nothing else, membership in frats should be restricted to juniors who have had some chance to mature and explore. The traditions - hazing, brotherhood, secret handshakes and ceremonies, ugh, give me a break! $40k/year for that????</p>

33

<p>Both my spouse and I were Greeks in college and enjoyed our fraternity and sorority experiences. Our son is not a member of any fraternity although we would have been happy if he wanted to pledge - but only at certain colleges. The college he attends now has fraternities that are prone to alcohol and hazing incidents, and we did not want him to pledge. The fraternities at other colleges he applied to did not have as many incidents. Whether he really wanted to join a fraternity was one of the factors he considered when deciding which college to attend.</p>

<p>Thus, in my view, whether your son pledges isn't a matter of being for or against fraternities but a question of what the specific fraternities at his college are like.</p>

<p>Curmudgeon,</p>

<p>You really should update your 636 thread to add THX's explanation for why he uses it. Who would have guessed?</p>

34

<p>I'm a recent alumnus of a large, well known international organization, and I honestly cannot imagine my life without having joined my fraternity. I'm at the beginning of my second year of medical school, and I honestly do not believe that I would be in medical school if wasn't for having joined my chapter. It enhanced my entire college experience. My little brother just joined and I couldn't be prouder. My parent's fully supported my decision, and my mom wouldn't let my brother follow my footsteps to my alma mater if he hadn't joined my house. </p>

<p>One of the biggest problems of discussing Greek life is that it varies widely from campus to campus. At some campuses the "Animal House" mentality is ubiquitous. At others, Greeks are doing a lot of good, give a lot to the surrounding community, enhance their members' experience while at college.</p>

<p>It is very important to examine the Greek system at your son's school. If GPA's are high, campus involvement widespread, members are spending time supporting and raising money for great causes, chapters are winning national awards from their larger organization, and campus leadership positions are filled by Greeks, then joining a chapter is a great idea. If on the other hand, GPAs are well below the all men's average, few Greeks hold leadership positions, many chapters are on probation with their national organization and the focus is only on drugs/partying, then even I, as a very proud greek alumnus, would urge that your student not take part.</p>

<p>As for the idea of putting off rush, I disagree - solid fraternity systems can provide a huge boost to an incoming frosh, helping them achieve far more than they otherwise might do on their own. Chapters provide structure to a very confusing time for incoming freshmen. It's an immediate support group, a group of guys that take an interest in how the pledge is doing - academically, socially, and emotionally. I can't tell you how many times we had discussions on how we were going to help pledge X do better in his math class or a history course. Active members knew when pledges had tests, knew when they weren't studying like they should, and would tell the pledge that he needed to step up. This structure extends to other areas - socially, involvement-wise, leadership-wise, and so on.</p>

<p>Are alcohol and hazing something to be aware of and concerned about? Yes, unfortunately these topics do exist. Alcohol however is not a problem that only affects greeks, but on plenty of campuses (of course not all), Greeks actually are safer when it comes to managing risk - they have alcohol education programs, designated drivers on weekends, and follow a host of risk management rules. </p>

<p>As for hazing, it's a tough thing to identify (again, campus culture really plays a major role) but it's not as widespread as the news articles make you think. It's going to come down to how much your son trusts the chapter members when they say they don't haze (b/c no rushee is going to be told that he's going to be haze). The guys who rushed me promised that I wouldn't be hazed and at the end of the day, I trusted them and it proved to be true. Nothing that happened during my pledgeship could have been construed as hazing. </p>

<p>Again, what it really comes down is to the campus your son is at. I can't emphasize that enough. Campus culture really determines what is common and acceptable.</p>

35

<p>rofl... frats = fear of being alone</p>

36

<p>I appreciate your comments Bigredmed. Beyond the issues of frats being alcohol-centric, spending time on your frat's activities and within your frat means that you aren't really open to experiencing the diversity on your college campus. Plus, the bid system is clearly exclusive in nature. You can find a junior on your floor to help you navigate your freshman year. Certainly you can find other students in your classes to give you advice about profs, classes, etc. - you might actually make a freind who doesn't fit the picture of who you think you are, etc. Freshmen should not be pressured to join a peer group - they readily jump in having just left the high school clique scene. Once the brainstorming begins that you are special to be part of the Frat, it's hard to see things another way.</p>

37

<p>Rileydog,</p>

<p>My experiences were different than what you describe. I had many friends when I was in college, including Greek friends, friends in my major, and people in the community who weren't students. Joining an organization, like going to college, can expand your horizons or limit them.</p>

38

<p>DRJ4 hits the nail on the head. </p>

<p>First, I met a lot more people by being part of the greek system than I would have otherwise. I have friends in nearly every chapter on my campus, and there certainly are people that I would not have otherwise associated with had I remained independent.</p>

<p>Second, there are many people within my chapter who I would not have met, or associated with were it not for the fraternity. My best friend was a polisci major who is now in law school (and a year younger than me), we were in no other clubs together other than the fraternity and in the future (the far off future) I know he will one of the guys that stands for me at my wedding. Where would I have met him? Same goes for two of my pledge brothers who will also be standing for me - both business majors, only connection was the fraternity.</p>

<p>Third, my fraternity actually required us to join other campus organizations and I met many different people through the organizations I joined, and I was extremely involved during my time on campus - to a greater extent than most everyone. Not to mention friends gained from the classes I took. Being pre-med the same people showed up semester after semester in my classes and you got to know them rather well b/c of recitations and lab groups. </p>

<p>I should add, that my school does summer rush, and incoming freshmen actually join before school starts and move into the fraternity houses the same day that everyone else is moving into the dorms. If what you're worried about really was a problem, then it'd be really evident at my campus, but that's not the case.</p>

<p>How do you account for the fact that studies show fraternity men and sorority women tend to be more successful than their non-greek counterparts? Why do Greek alumni have a higher frequency of giving (and at greater amounts) to their alma maters? </p>

<p>Like I've said, there are certainly places where I would encourage students not to go Greek, places where it really is a detrimental decision, but to make generalizations across the country is problematic at best.</p>

39

<p>I'd never known anyone who'd been involved in Greek life, but went to parties on several campuses when I got to my womens college. Not impressed. Just seemed like organised drinking forums to me!. My husband is adamantly against frats, and I guess when its time for our kids to look at colleges, we'll have to let them do what they want. It'll be their choice but if I had my choice, I'd hope they'd go somewhere where Greek life didn't exist.</p>

40

<p>^^And here I thought you were a member of Delta Kappa Epsilon (DKE)! You would have been in excellent company.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dke.org/H1.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dke.org/H1.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>