Frats and Sororities - Influence on Campus

Parents Forum
181

<p>He'd still have 20% of the student population to hang out with;) In a class of 2000 (guess-timation of the size of a small private school), that would be 40 kids per class, 160 over the campus. How many friends do you need?</p>

<p>But, I still go back to - if you don't want to hang around with people who drink, don't. </p>

<p>I doubt very seriously that students a W&L are carrying coolers full of beer to class, and I doubt seriously that male fraternity members (who in your opinion are rapist rabblerousers) are lurking in the shadows of the academic buildings to catch unsuspecting co-eds as they walk from class to class.</p>

<p>In the evenings, the drinkers can hang with the drinkers and the non-drinkers can hang with the non-drinkers. They don't live in a commune, they live in a college town. I assume they also have movie theaters, restaurants, shopping areas, etc where there isn't a beer bash going on.</p>

182

<p>
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One of the factors at play in southern schools is the percentage of southern baptist and others who frown on drinking as a religious belief

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<p>Then how do you explain the Grove at Ole Miss?</p>

183

<p>Lexington is pretty small. There are about 6 restaurants, a few stores and not much more. Very few bars even. Not sure about movies--maybe one theater.</p>

<p>And most southerners separate Sunday and the other six days. Alcohol is much beloved in the south. From the beer drinking NASCAR boys to the uppercrust country clubbers. Lots of alcohol.</p>

184

<p>"He'd still have 20% of the student population to hang out with In a class of 2000 (guess-timation of the size of a small private school), that would be 40 kids per class, 160 over the campus. How many friends do you need?
But, I still go back to - if you don't want to hang around with people who drink, don't."</p>

<p>It's a good theory. At most of these schools, a very large proportion of the abstainers are so for religious reasons (usually fundamentalist), and if a non-religious student is comfortable among them, that's great. But many might not be. The second largest proportion of non-drinkers may be those who in the past have been impacted by alcohol or other drugs, and regularly attend AA meetings. Nothing wrong with that either. But some students might still be uncomfortable - it will be different for every student.</p>

<p>"But, I still go back to - if you don't want to hang around with people who drink, don't.
I doubt very seriously that students a W&L are carrying coolers full of beer to class,"</p>

<p>So on one of her college visits, my d. stayed in a suite of young women, all of whom began to drink (Thursday night) before dinner) - quietly, I should add - and then several took flasks of hard liquor to an a capella concert. They were all very nice (I was told), but all complained about the loud and obnoxious drunks who lived in the next entry way who got very drunk into the late hours 3 or 4 days a week. When my d. asked "Well, what if I don't want to live next to people who get obnoxiously drunk three or four times a week?" they looked at her like she was nuts.</p>

<p>I do imagine it would have been possible to step around them (and their mess). The question (as I asked before) is why she should have to, if there are plenty of other good college options out there.</p>

<p>"I doubt seriously that male fraternity members (who in your opinion are rapist rabblerousers)"</p>

<p>The data about the potential and actual felonies came from W&L, not from ID.</p>

185

<p>Ol Miss appears to have had a 62% binge drinking rate in 2006:</p>

<p>Alcohol</a> Task Force</p>

<p>That's seriously ugly. With so many of Mississippi's best and brightest drinking like fish, it could partially explain why the state ranks dead last in just about everything. (Did they ever pave Interstate 20 between Meridian and Jackson?)</p>

<p>Hey, at least the 62% gives the W&L students something to shoot for!</p>

186

<p>"But, I still go back to - if you don't want to hang around with people who drink, don't."</p>

<p>Well, yeah, that's the point. Some people want to go to a college where the majority of people aren't heavy drinkers, so they don't have to hang around with only a tiny minority. Why does that bother you?</p>

187

<p>IDad and Mini- people would be more receptive to what you have to say if you were able to suggest a range of school's appropriate for a non-drinker other than Swarthmore, Smith and American U. I think you both have an important message but it gets lost in your chest-beating about your own daughter's choices.</p>

<p>My kid went to MIT, he joined a frat, I'm sure he drank too much although he claimed that he didn't. I'm also sure he's made other bad choices along the way although he's healthy, holds down a job, pays his taxes, and never had so much as a parking ticket so by most measures he's not a derelict on skid row. I would be the first to suggest that a kid who wants a non-frat, non-drinking campus take MIT off the list; otoh given the number of non-drinkers or occasional drinkers there, it would be silly to take it off the list just to avoid alchohol and frats given that the alternatives are likely to be worse.</p>

<p>Idad- some of MIT's frats occupy buildings owned by MIT- and the students would be the first to tell you that the "administration" has clamped down hard on rowdy behavior of all types, takes risk management very seriously, does not hesitate to call in law enforcement (it is illegal to buy a keg of beer in Cambridge... but not Boston where some of the frats are located.) I think you are bashing the administration on issues dating back to the mid 1990's. This is not to say that anyone should send a child there if they don't like frats and prefer a dry campus- but to assert that MIT does not invest in the undergrad living experience is based on exactly what?? </p>

<p>Parents should understand that regardless of the values they've taught and lived at home, a kid who goes off to college is going to be exposed to a lot of things they're not that familiar with. Being sensationalist about it and implying that every female student at a coed campus with frats and drinking is at high risk for being raped isn't very helpful for the newbie parents. Telling your HS junior daughter not to get into a car with a boy who has been drinking is a better use of your time. Take a look at the mortality rates on 17 and 18 year olds (who live at home and drive mom's car who end up wrapped around a tree) and you will give better advice to parents worrying about substance abuse.</p>

188

<p>So do ALL schools participate in these surveys? Which schools do not?</p>

189

<p>Help me decode these stats, please. This is what I could find on the Rhodes College website about binge drinking. It seems like they have "cherry picked" what to report:</p>

<p>Rhodes College and Binge Drinking
Results of Social Norms Survey: Rites of Spring 2000</p>

<p>3 out of 5 Rhodes students drink 0-4 drinks when they choose to drink.
72% of Rhodes students surveyed did not believe that you had to drink to fit in at Rhodes.
70% of Rhodes “A” students surveyed reported drinking 0-4 drinks when they choose to drink.
3 out of 4 Rhodes Women reported drinking 0-4 drinks when they chose to drink.</p>

190

<p>
[quote]
..but to assert that MIT does not invest in the undergrad living experience is based on exactly what??

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</p>

<p>I believe I said "did not" and acknowledged that MIT has bolstered its commitment to residential life significantly in recent years.</p>

<p>BTW, MIT is a low-binge drinking rate school. 28% according to this:</p>

<p>Drinking</a> education program proves highly effective at MIT - MIT News Office</p>

<p>Not surprising. It's urban. Academically demanding. Not sports oriented. And, has a very large cohort of Asian American students if I recall.</p>

191

<p>"IDad and Mini- people would be more receptive to what you have to say if you were able to suggest a range of school's appropriate for a non-drinker other than Swarthmore, Smith and American U. I think you both have an important message but it gets lost in your chest-beating about your own daughter's choices."</p>

<p>Earlham, Macalester, Scripps, Harvey Mudd, Santa Clara, Pomona, UChicago (and most urban schools). All schools with higher concentrations of minorities and women (Vassar might be an example of the latter). Among the Ivies, Columbia and Harvard. All schools with less emphasis on spectator sports. Schools that are less rural. Schools with religious orientations (Whitworth, BYU, Wheaton). Schools with higher percentages of Pell Grant students and Asian or African-American students (you can start with Berkeley). Schools with significant work-study components. HBCUs - Morehouse and Spelman. Schools with fraternity/sorority participation lower than 30%. (And, yes, you will find drinking at all of them.) I also happen to think - but I DON'T have data - that schools that integrate all four classes in housing rather than have freshman ghettos likely see less bingeing. Schools that are officially dry and enforce it (University of Oklahoma).</p>

<p>As I've said before, you really can do this yourself. Take the 8 characteristics of high bingeing schools and compare with the school under consideration (you don't need to know the actual rate of the school). If you find 7 or 8 of them, you can be sure you've got a high-bingeing school. If you've got fewer, you can kick the tires a little more. It really isn't rocket science. And (as ID seems to have demonstrated), quite often you can find the data on-line.</p>

<p>And there are probably non-drinkers who can be happy and find their people at high bingeing schools, especially large ones, where the cohort of abstainers may be larger, or who simply revel in their own "idiosyncracy" and will be happy most anywhere, as long as the campus offers other qualities they enjoy.</p>

192

<p>ag54,
The Grove at Ole Miss...now, there's a nice thought. Wonderful place with wonderful parties and beautiful scenery, including the people. I wonder how many folks on here have any idea what it's like. Good luck to the Rebels this year!</p>

193

<p>There are indeed frats at MIT, but overall the binge drinking rates there have always much lower than average: Harvard</a> Study Finds Binge Drinking Less Frequent on Diverse Campuses - The Tech and Drinking</a> education program proves highly effective at MIT - MIT News Office</p>

194

<p>
[quote]
Well, yeah, that's the point. Some people want to go to a college where the majority of people aren't heavy drinkers, so they don't have to hang around with only a tiny minority. Why does that bother you?

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</p>

<p>Doesn't bother me at all. I couldn't care less where some kid wants to go to college, I just think the histrionics on this thread are ridiculous and feel an urge to point that out.</p>

<p>If a kid wants to go to college where there are not a lot of drinkers, then by all means go there. I asked ID to give his approved college list, but got an empty list of numbers. </p>

<p>I would assume BYU is fairly dry, but you have to deal with all the Mormon stuff, and if that's not your bag, then it's probably a no-go. I'm sure there are a bunch of religious schools where drinking (and dancing) are frowned upon. The service academies are probably pretty "binge" free, but you better be in great shape athletically, and be prepared to serve your country. </p>

<p>Beyond those, I would think it would be kind of hard to find a college campus-greeks or no, where there isn't any drinking, so at that point you'd have to step around the drunks sometimes at the college you end up at.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Parents should understand that regardless of the values they've taught and lived at home, a kid who goes off to college is going to be exposed to a lot of things they're not that familiar with. Being sensationalist about it and implying that every female student at a coed campus with frats and drinking is at high risk for being raped isn't very helpful for the newbie parents.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Amen and well said</p>

<p>mini listed an approved school list - I suggest y'all start booking your flights</p>

<p>
[quote]
Earlham, Macalester, Scripps, Harvey Mudd, Santa Clara, Pomona, UChicago (and most urban schools). All schools with higher concentrations of minorities and women (Vassar might be an example of the latter). Among the Ivies, Columbia and Harvard. All schools with less emphasis on spectator sports. Schools that are less rural. Schools with religious orientations (Whitworth, BYU, Wheaton). Schools with higher percentages of Pell Grant students and Asian or African-American students (you can start with Berkeley). Schools with significant work-study components. HBCUs - Morehouse and Spelman. Schools with fraternity/sorority participation lower than 30%. (And, yes, you will find drinking at all of them.) I also happen to think - but I DON'T have data - that schools that integrate all four classes in housing rather than have freshman ghettos likely see less bingeing. Schools that are officially dry and enforce it (University of Oklahoma).

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<p>(although, OU may be officially dry, but I know quite a few drunks who attend presently)</p>

195

<p>You probably should advise W&L then that it isn't wise to publish their data. (Better to keep 'em barefoot and ignorant, as long as they pay the college bills.)</p>

196

<p>
[quote]
The Grove at Ole Miss...now, there's a nice thought. Wonderful place with wonderful parties and beautiful scenery, including the people. I wonder how many folks on here have any idea what it's like. Good luck to the Rebels this year!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What do y'all say? Hotty Toddy, are you ready?</p>

197

<p>
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The</a> Harvard Crimson :: Opinion :: Shaken, Not Stirred

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<p>For you non drinkers looking into Harvard.</p>

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In the past six months, the Harvard administration has made itself perfectly clear: “college” is cancelled. The combination of underage binge drinking, uncontrolled hazing, and unhindered irresponsibility that has produced generations of great Americans has met its untimely end, at the hands of a pack of lawyerly dweebs.

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</p>

198

<p>My H was a cadet and a faculty member at a service academy. They had and still have their fair share of out-of-control behaviors exhibited by their students. Don't you know that the Corps/Brigade is one big fraternity of DI athletes, not to mention warriors?</p>

199

<p>Already? - basically it was a small state college in an old, dull town and the college had a bare bones budget for social events. The f/s's combined probably had more money than what was allocated. Well, OK, not likely but they did a whole lot more. We would buy block concert tix, have holiday events, dinners, dances, parties....you name it.....not just drinking events....but it you stuck with the college events exclusively you'd have died of boredom.</p>

200

<p>"(although, OU may be officially dry, but I know quite a few drunks who attend presently)"</p>

<p>As I said, you'll find bingers at all of these schools. And it isn't an "approved list" ;) - just a list of schools - or, more importantly, characteristics of schools, where students specifically looking for an environment for a non-drinker might be more comfortable. There are hundreds and hundreds of them, all over the country, some public, some private, some large, some small, some religious and some not, some coed and some single gender, some leftwing and some rightwing, some academically intense and some less so, on both coasts and in the middle.</p>