Frats and Sororities - Influence on Campus

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The question a student has to ask before applying to schools is "do I fit in to the overarching campus culture (partying or not) and if I don't do I think I can still find my niche and have fun here?"

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<p>IMO, the most cogent comment in this entire thread. And, it comes from a college sophomore, who is "in the trenches".</p>

<p>Why the histrionics from hand wrenching parents? Believe it or not, the little darlings will be ok in college (at least statistically speaking - because thousands more students go to college that don't become binge drinkring/rabblerousing fraternity members than do).</p>

<p>If you don't want to go Greek, don't...</p>

<p>Here's Rice's binge drinking rate from a 2004 survey: 35%</p>

<p>Work</a> hard, play hard: a dangerous myth | The Rice Thresher </p>

<p>Here's Harvey Mudd's, although the figure given for the national average is quite a bit off. I think the 37% figure is probably a typo. Claremont McKenna is the only Claremont College that might be at or above the national average for binge drinking. Scripps certainly isn't. Pomona isn't. I doubt Pitzer is, and clearly Mudd is not:</p>

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The program is also designed to “eliminate occurrences of binge drinking and its consequences.” Its percentage of students who self-reportedly binge drink is also significantly below the national average: 28 percent of Harvey Mudd students **compared to **40 percent among all five Claremont Colleges and 37 percent nationally in 2005.

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<p>This is an important point that we need to be making. It's not like the low-binge drinking rate schools are temperance societies. There's still plenty of beer pong to be found. As you say, both Mudd and Rice are un ashamedly wet campuses. I doubt very much that you or your kids feel like they have insufficient opportunity to drink in college if they choose. My guess is that all three of you feel like there is gracious plenty opportunity to hit the suds.</p>

<p>Now, imagine what schools with binge drinking rates 10%, 20%, or even 30% higher must be like. Imagine what it's like at a school where 55% of the students have an alcohol blackout each year.</p>

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"Why is it that whenever someone is expressing looking for advice on finding low-binge and low-greek schools, the thread gets hi-jacked by the notion that there is something wrong with even looking for those qualities in a school. Why not just let the OPs look for the kind of schools they want? Why the sales job on the value of heavy binge drinking and frat boys to a college experience?"

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<p>Why is it that whenever the word greek or frat appears in a thread, it gets hijacked by ANTI greek people who go on ad nauseum about binge drinking, rape, and other heinous misdeeds, despite anecdotal, defensive posts by those with experience with greeks?</p>

<p>I say again, if you don't want to be greek, don't join. If you don't want to have anything to do with them, stay away from them, don't go to the parties, don't date one, don't befriend one. They have cooties anyway.</p>

<p>It's not like they're holding a gun to your head, and forcing you to participate.</p>

<p>Rice has had it's share of problems. Two pretty high profile incicents - one death involving a frat..another.. four members of the lacrosse team brought to the hospital with alcohol poisoning after a bizarre hazing incident (involved drinking large quantities of hard alcohol while handcuffed together).
Here's an excerpt from the court proceedings in the lacrosse case. No hard stats...but don't understand why someone would say this unless there was at least a grain of truth to it:
‘You’ll see that Rice itself is extreme among American universities in permitting the sort of drinking that occurred on this campus and the delivery of kegs and so forth"
IDad, I know you're here trying to help parents and students open their eyes to binge drinking and how it might vary on different campuses. Fine - the info you provide might be helpful for some. But your extreme bias against greeks is showing through. You say your disgust is supported by numbers that show greeks drink more than non greeks. Well, if you want to really stick to your guns on this, you should advise parents to stay away from residential colleges all together. Why does a 44% binge drinking rate sound good to you? Is that place SOOO much better than a place that has a 52% rate? And why do you treat these surveys like they are science. I've done surveys for years and you have to be VERY careful about how you interpret the data. Different measures are used - sometimes different size sample populations. The percentages can vary significantly year on year. It's a imperfect science...designed to be used as a broad barometer not as absolute guide. You know, like that awful ranking book everyone uses???<br>
No problems with screening schools but be careful about making assumptions - and try to keep objective... and observant. Check it out yourself - and talk to the students. Stay the weekend. Don't depend on books or surveys.
And at least there are some balanced opinions to consider on this board.</p>

<p>Interested Dad, why don't you give us your approved list of colleges, where we can all be sure that our kids will be 100% safe from all the bad influences that can occur at colleges? </p>

<p>That would solve this whole issue. The opening thread person could just print it out, and call the airlines for flight information and set up visits.</p>

<p>and Amen to the Rice post above. My son's best friend is a senior there, and my son, who attends a huge SEC state school, says that some of the wildest parties he's ever been to were at Rice. One in particular is all about wearing nothing - naked party - where everybody gets absolutely trashed. There is also the infamous bike race where they have to drink each lap until either puking or falling off the bike. Not judging Rice - it's an incredible school with great kids, and statistically, most of them end up employable at the end of 4 years despite the "party" atmosphere.</p>

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Why does a 44% binge drinking rate sound good to you?

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<p>I didn't say it did. I actually would probably put 44% (the national average for binge drinking) at the extreme top end of the acceptable range I'd be looking for. Anything above that is just too much of a culture of drunkenness when there are so many great schools with more moderate drinking scenes.</p>

<p>BTW, I'm in favor including binge drinking rates in the USNEWS rankings. It would be a tremendous aid to college shoppers.</p>

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why don't you give us your approved list of colleges, where we can all be sure that our kids will be 100% safe from all the bad influences that can occur at colleges?

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<p>OK. Here's the list:</p>

<p>1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
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9.
10.</p>

<p>I have to go look it up, but I believe the latest Monitoring the Future Survey puts it at 40% (it peaked around 2002-2003). </p>

<p>Ah, yes, I have the 2006 Report right here - 40% (which it was in 1993), less than five years ago.</p>

<p>InterestedDad,</p>

<p>Interesting stats. My eldest, the Mudder, is very familiar with Vandy--we live in Nashville, and he was in his GF's vandy dorm for about 10 days last school year. His impression was that drinking was more common at Mudd, probably because it is in the open. (He was taken aback by the "pregaming" and drinking behind closed doors by Vandy frosh.) OTOH, his GF was surprised at how nonchalant HMC students were about drinking.</p>

<p>Thus, someone visiting both schools would likely form an impression at odds with the stats--which is consistent with my belief that preventing 18 year olds from drinking legally contributes to problem drinking in that cohort.</p>

<p>mini:</p>

<p>Then, maybe the Mudd author simply reversed the figures: national average 40% and Claremont College average 37%.</p>

<p>That would actually make sense.</p>

<p>"BTW, I'm in favor including binge drinking rates in the USNEWS rankings. It would be a tremendous aid to college shoppers."
So we can add to some of the other squishy measures like Peer Review Rating?
Keep to the verifiable stats (SATs, graduation rates, freshman retention rates student to faculty ratios etc). There's plenty "survey" info out there that is interesting but somewhat questionable (princeton review has a corner on this). Should we also include survey ratings on food? How about percentage of self identified smokers? Self identified pot users maybe? Oberlin and Reed may have low binge drinking rates but have we looked at drug use?
And don't you think schools would many schools would STOP surveying their population with this new scheme? Or try to hide problems? So, let say we published hospital admissions for alcohol poisoning in USNEWS ? I can see schools trying to bring that number down by interfering with the process of identifying kids who need help somehow- with very dangerous consequences.<br>
Pretty scary.
Anyway, who needs USNEWS when we got you???</p>

<p>stevedad:</p>

<p>The same thing would apply to Swarthmore. Booze is freely and openly served to any Swarthmore student at all campus parties every weekend. There's Thursday night pub night (starts at 10 pm, I think), where about 100 students pay $4 or $5 to drink beer on tap in a bar-like setting. Going to a party and drinking is no big deal to a Swarthmore student.</p>

<p>If the culture of the school is such that they can have widespread availability of booze and moderate binge drinking rates, great. But, every school is different and different approaches are required. The really tough challenge is trying to reverse the culture at a blotto high-binge drinking school. That is really difficult because you've got self-selection of hard core drinkers in admissions, in the same way that Harvey Mudd and Swarthmore aren't names that pop immediately to mind when thinking about world-class party schools.</p>

<ul>
<li> Approximately 92% of US adults who drink excessively report binge drinking in the past 30 days (2).

<ul>
<li>Although college students commonly binge drink, 70% of binge drinking episodes involve adults over age 25 (3).</li>
<li>The rate of binge drinking among men is 2 times the rate of women (4).</li>
<li>Binge drinkers are 14 times more likely to report alcohol-impaired driving than non-binge drinkers (3).</li>
<li>About 90% of the alcohol consumed by youth under the age of 21 in the United States is in the form of binge drinks<a href="5">/B</a>.</li>
<li>
About 75% of the alcohol consumed by adults in the United States is in the form of binge drinks<a href="5">/B</a>.</li>
<li>**The proportion of current drinkers that binge is highest in the 18 to 20 year old groups (51%)<a href="3">/B</a>.</li>
</ul></li>
</ul>

<p>Alcohol</a> and Public Health - Binge Drinking</p>

<p>Just a little perspective.</p>

<p>^a difference of 3% of HMC vs national average could be due to error that comes with these surveys. HMC only has like 800 undergrads. If 10 more students were to have answered the survey and said they were binge drinkers then it would be at, or higher than, the national average.</p>

<p>No. HMC's binge drinking rate was 28%. The other figures were an average of all the Claremont Colleges and the national average. </p>

<p>I can't remember the exact number, but I've seen Pomona's binge drinking rate. It's low 30% range. Scripps is almost certainly low. We know Mudd's is 28%. So, it would be almost impossible for the Claremont Colleges as a group to be as high as the national average.</p>

<p>Re; Rice
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Two pretty high profile incicents - one death involving a frat..another.. four members of the lacrosse team brought to the hospital with alcohol poisoning after a bizarre hazing incident (involved drinking large quantities of hard alcohol while handcuffed together).

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Not sure about the "death involving a frat" No frats at Rice. There was one student who died of a drug overdose and it was just tragic! :( The Lacrosse incident was 5 years ago, and was dealt with severely (as it should have been), and all captains involved were suspended for 2 or 3 semesters, club lacrosse team disbanded, etc. In that case, the kids were told verbally and in writing that they didn't have to drink, and the handcuffs were toy ones - and that just goes to show you how very bright kids can make terrible decisions that could have terrible lasting consequences. That's the only hazing incident I've heard of from Rice, and it was so out-of-character that the whole Rice community was shocked.
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There is also the infamous bike race where they have to drink each lap until either puking or falling off the bike.

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Actually not. At Beer Bike, the bike 'racers' don't drink at all (at least not until they are finished racing, and then not formally) The 'racers' do the bike laps, the "chuggers" chug water if underage and water or beer if overage, but just "chug" one time. Chuggers each get one turn. Racers race two or three laps. It sounds bizzare, but "beer bike" is really a sort of relay race, with the pit stops when the chugging happens. It is also a huge water balloon fight and draws many alumni each year. I agree that there is too much drinking at Rice, but there is also SO much going on and plenty of non-drinkers.</p>

<p>"Why does a 44% binge drinking rate sound good to you? Is that place SOOO much better than a place that has a 52% rate? And why do you treat these surveys like they are science. I've done surveys for years and you have to be VERY careful about how you interpret the data. Different measures are used - sometimes different size sample populations."</p>

<p>These surveys, using exactly the same questions, repeatedly tested for reliability and validity, have been around since 1975. They utilize very large sample sizes. The numbers are not at all "squishy".</p>

<p>But I'll have a go at that question, noting of course, that a college's drinking environment would be only one of many considerations I would ever use in the calculus of choosing a college. For some students (and I would think a non-religious medically required total abstainer) it would be an extremely important factor, for others not so much.</p>

<p>On virtually all non-religious residential campuses, the total abstainer rate is somewhere between 15-25%. Take 20% as a given. If you use the 40% bingeing in the past two weeks as the median, it would mean that 40% drank moderately (if they drank at all in that two-week period), and certainly 20% not at all. So 60% of the campus found other things to do.</p>

<p>Now add 10% to the bingers, and all of a sudden, moderate drinkers are in a distinct minority (in fact, if you believe the W&L article, students say they tend to disappear). The total abstainers are still there, but the feel of the campus begins to change. In any 50% bingeing campus, binge rates for white male students will be substantially higher, and for better or for worse, they tend to set the social patterns in most environments. So it's likely to feel different. Whether you like it or not is simply a matter of personal preference.</p>

<p>Now take it 10% the other way. Half the campus is now made up of moderate drinkers (some of whom may not have drunk at all in that two-week period), with 20% abstainers. The cultural pattern of the campus is likely to be quite different. Again, whether or not you like it is a matter of personal preference. </p>

<p>The association of high binge environments with sexual predatory behavior (as the W&L stats portray) is particularly strong. You'll tend to see significantly less of that in low-binge environments, coupled with the fact that, on the whole, women are less likely to binge - so campuses with a female majority have a built-in non-binge (dis)advantage. For whatever reason, binge drinking too often turns otherwise healthy college-age males into potential (or actual) felons.</p>

<p>But notice that the swing in what the culture might feel like would occur with differences of only 20% or less. I imagine there are many students that are attracted to a "work hard, play hard" environment, and I have no problem with it if that's what they choose. And there are lots of excellent colleges with superb academic faculties and facilities like my alma mater where at least a strong plurality are happy with the environment the way it is (though clearly the administration isn't, since they are spending millions trying to change it). </p>

<p>Transparency is still the key. I happen to think, like ID, that the binge drinking rate is at least as important as alumni giving for purposes of USNWR - that is, aiding students and parents in decision-making, but for that we'd wait until hell freezes over.</p>

<p>Professionally, I see too "acute consequences" - many deaths, too many injuries, too many sexual assaults and rapes, too many hospitalizations resulting from binge drinking. Clearly, if this is an accepted form of "socializing", it is a dangerous one, though I understand young people well enough to know that many like to live dangerously.</p>

<p>However, binge drinking by itself is not directly linked to alcoholism or serious alcohol problems among adults. Heavy drinking (repetitive binge drinking, or near daily drinking is). Roughly 60% of those who are or who become heavy drinkers in college will become alcoholics or develop serious problems related to alcohol as adults. (Some of them, by the way, will be very "successful" in their careers - alcoholics and addicts are not stupid, they are just alcoholics and addicts). It's just too many, and I wish educational institutions would see it as part of their calling to educate.</p>

<p>But overall, as a parent, I'm less concerned with students who enjoy drinking, and more concerned with students who would like other options.</p>

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Actually not. The bike racers don't drink at all (at least not until they are finished racing, and then not formally) The racers do the bike laps, the "chuggers" chug water if underage and water or beer if overage, but just "chug" one time. Chuggers each get one turn. Racers race two or three laps. It sounds bizzare, but "beer bike" is really a sort of relay race, with the pit stops when the chugging happens.

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<p>Oh, sorry, my son's friend must have been a chugger;) He misrepresented the story to me. But, like I said, not judging, he's a great kid, incredibly smart, headed to lawschool, but - drinks in college - duh, duh, duuuuuh:)</p>

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That said, yes, there is too much drinking at Rice, but there is also SO much going on and plenty of non-drinkers so that all can find a place.

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<p>Absolutely! But, I bet there's plenty of non-drinkers at most schools. If 44% are drinkers, that means that 56% are not. So, if someone doesn't want to hang around with drinkers, chances are they can find a few friends to hang with.</p>

<p>Now, if the statistic was that 94% were drinkers, then, if I wasn't a drinker, I would probably choose another school...</p>

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If 44% are drinkers, that means that 56% are not. So, if someone doesn't want to hang around with drinkers, chances are they can find a few friends to hang with.

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<p>No. No. No. The 44% (or 40%) is not the percentage of drinkers. It's the percentage of **binge-drinkers **in the prior two weeks. So, a school right at the national average would be:</p>

<p>20% non-drinkers
40% moderate or occasional drinkers
40% binge drinkers</p>

<p>Washington and Lee would be something like:</p>

<p>20% non-drinkers
20% moderate drinkers
60% binge drinkers</p>

<p>See how a moderate or occasional drinker could feel pretty lonely at W&L? Or, another way of looking at it. Two-thirds of the W&L students who drink had an alcohol blackout last year. Only one-third of the W&L students who drink did not drink to the point of blackout last year. Something is wrong here. Not wrong with the fact that W&L students drink, but wrong with the way they drink.</p>

<p>Stevesdad:</p>

<p>You know, it is possible that the drinking is more uniform across the student body at Mudd than at Vandy, despite Vandy's higher binge drinking rate. One of the factors at play in southern schools is the percentage of southern baptist and others who frown on drinking as a religious belief. Thus, you might have the campus fragmented into heavier binge drinking elements and non drinking elements moreso than at a northeast or west coast school.</p>

<p>The hidden "pre-gaming" is the worst. My daugther was involved in calling for help for a friend one time in four years at Swarthmore, the result of too many cocktails, too quickly, before a dry party. He drank one too many by the time the first one hit him.</p>