French student who wants to go to Cal

Student Lounge International Students
1

<p>Hi everyone, </p>

<p>I'm a french student (but I have a dual nationality : french and american ) and my dream is to get a bachelor degree in the US in order to get a good job there and achieve my american dream :)
I have never lived in the US so please excuse my poor english.</p>

<p>I would like to thank the originator of the website and all the members who help the students. I have already foud some useful informations regarding the US educational system notably the possibility to transfer to a four-year college after having completed at least 60 units. But, some questions remain, it is why I'm seeking for your advices.</p>

<p>I have founded many outlooks regarding the path to follow for a non-resident american so as to incur a bachelor degree ( in business or economics) :</p>

<p>-some advise me to do my master in France and after go to the USA but the problem is that I don't want to go to the USA to get a PhD but just a bachelor. I know that some people go to the french business school then work during 5 years and do an MBA but I don't want to wait 10 years more (5 for the master or "grande ecole" and 5 years of work),</p>

<p>-other commend me to apply right now to the american universities but the problem for me is that I would like to go to a very good university such as UC Berkeley and the french educational system is really not like the american : the grades are lower and we are not really incited to have a lot of Ecs. In fact, the best sudent ( i'm the fourth of my class) go to the "prepa" to become engineer whether they like sciences or not and to be accepted to the "prepa" they just want student to be good in class but Ecs are not even mentioned. Thus, I don't have Ecs.
Before applying, I read that we need the SAT and for the international student, the TOEFL, the problem is that I have not took these tests and even if I have had, I am not bilingual so I don't think I would get the necessary score at the TOEFL ( 500) and it would have been difficult for me to get a good score at the sat because of my english ( though the math part would have been easy).</p>

<p>For all these reasons, I do not think that UC Berkeley or schools like Harvard, MIT will accept me by that way,</p>

<p>-the last idea is to do one year of Intensive English Program in a californian community college and after do two years of credit-classes with a major in business or economics in order to transfer to Cal or a private schools ( I know that private schools accept really few students from community college). </p>

<p>It will be realy kind if you could give me your viewpoint about these pathway notably the last one :)</p>

<p>Thank you very much.</p>

<p>PS: Thank you Bali-Balo if you read this message !</p>

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<p>I'll comment on the regular Bachelor's degree path first:</p>

<p>Your written English sounds just fine and the TOEFL is not incredibly hard... If you can speak as good as you can write, I don't think you would have too much trouble passing it. (Have you taken a practice test to see how you would be doing?)</p>

<p>Regarding the SAT: If the vocab questions on the SAT are giving you a hard time, check out the ACT. It's an alternative to the SAT and it tests grammar instead of vocab. You might find that easier (especially if you studied English as a foreign language).</p>

<p>How do your finances look like? Harvard and MIT would be a long shot, but if you can pay the bill Berkeley might be within reach. The reason is that Berkeley does not give financial aid to international students so they get a lot less international applicants. The same is true for other top colleges that do not award a lot of aid to internationals. If you need aid, you have to stand out of a huge crowd which makes admission extremely competitive (you would need some decent ECs unless you are really outstanding academically). If you can pay the full bill, however, you have a lot more options and you don't really need ECs as long as you are academically qualified.</p>

<p>If money is not an issue, I would advise you to take the TOEFL and the SAT or ACT and see how you actually end up doing, and if those scores are fine go ahead and apply to top universities (ones that are not too generous with aid - maybe avoid Harvard, Princeton, Yale and MIT unless you genuinely want to attend them).</p>

<p>If money is an issue (but not a big one) the community college option might be better, but only if you can afford to transfer to an expensive college afterwards. I personally would not want to attend a community college though because they are said not to provide a challenging academic environment. The students I have spoken to agreed that community college classes are easier than AP courses in high school...</p>

<p>If money is a big issue, staying in France might be the best option.</p>

3

<p>For international students, UC Berkeley is as selective as the HYPSM. Only about 12% international students (more or less) are admitted into Cal in each year. I don't exactly know the reason behind it though. I just know that Cal is so mean to international students, based on personal experience and anecdotal circumstances. </p>

<p>In 2000, I got into 7 out of the 10 schools I applied to. Berkeley was one of those 3 schools that rejected me. The other 2 were MIT and Princeton. Very rarely would Berkeley offer a place from my high school which is based in Manila, Philippines. During my time, 11 applied to Cal. Nobody got accepted. But here's the good news: two of the schools that accepted me were Ivy League schools -- Columbia and UPenn. So it didn't matter to me that much back then when I got rejected at MIT, Princeton and Berkeley, though I admit that it would have been a big moral booster for me. Aside from Columbia and UPenn, I also got into Chicago, Rice and JHU. The 3 are generally considered top privates. And finally, the last 2, which were my fall back schools then -- Georgetown and USC. Ironically, none of those schools that admitted me has successfully lured me to accept the offer. I later decided to stay close to home and enrolled at the University of the Philippines at Diliman (UP Diliman) which is the top school in the Philippines. My father's persuasion won over at the end, I guess. Now, I'm reapplying to Berkeley only this time, for grad school and to Haas, the business school of UC Berkeley. I hope I get in this time around. </p>

<p>BTW, nobody fails in the TOEFL. In other words, there's no passing score for TOEFL. The university usually sets up its own cut-off score. Most top-ranked schools would require at least 580 (paper based) or 280 (computer based). I got 640 back then.</p>

<p>My combined SAT scores back then were 1480. I heard SATs have 3 parts this time. There’s already a written part.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
For international students, UC Berkeley is as selective as the HYPSM.

[/quote]

Not quite, at least when selectivity is measured in terms of admission rate. MIT admits only 4% of its international applicants, Harvard admits 5%.</p>

<p>To the OP: don't be scared by those numbers. You have one definite advantage over most applicants: you are French :) The general consensus here on CC is that the majority of applicants to top universities are Asians.</p>

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<p>I'm sorry, UC Berkeley admitted only 6% international students last year. That's pretty close to Harvard's 5%. But yeah, MIT is slightly more selective for international students. Harvard is probably the most selective amongst all the best schools.</p>

<p>To the OP, I suggest you apply. You wouldn't have a way to find out if you do stand a chance if you don't apply. Good luck!</p>

<p>You may also want to apply to Rice, Michigan, Northwestern and John's Hopkins. All these schools have excellent undergrad engineering programs.</p>

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<p>I forgot Columbia, UPenn and Cornell are also amazing schools with great international reputation.</p>

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<p>First of all, thank you B@r!um and Powergrid1990 for yours answers :)</p>

<p>To B@rl!um, I'm French but a french asian lol.</p>

<p>I have some concerns regarding the admission during the freshman year because I don't know if I just have to take the SAT ( or ACT) + TOEFL or if I have also to send my transcript. And if I had to send mpy transcript it will be bad for me due to my behave in spanish, biology and also I hated school two years ago ( but they maybe don't request the transcipt of that year ?). I know, it's bad but I don't studie at all spanish and biology because I don't like much these subjects and in France, it doesn't really matter if you want to become an engineer to have bad grades in biology or spanish that explains my behave.. But, the teachers don't hate me, they even like me, but in the transcript, they said that I don't studie at all which wasn't false. At least, I have realy good grades in maths, chemisty, physics and all other subjects.</p>

<p>Concerning the TOEFL, ordinarily (like you said) they require 500 or more. I have read that a score of 500 reflects a fluent level, what do you think about that ? Because I don't think I have a fluent level ! </p>

<p>I have also think about an other way to go to Cal ( or a private university ) : it is possible to do one semester of Intensive English Program in order to have at least 500 at TOEFL + take the SAT and after apply to the Ucs ? That pathway woul allow me to avoid the community college which as a «<em>poor reputation</em>».</p>

<p>Thank you again for yours answers.</p>

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<p>Oh yeah, colleges want to see all grades from the latest 4 years of your education... If your counselor (or a teacher) had to rank you within your class based on your grades from the last... let's say 2 years, where do you think you would you end up? In the top 10%, the top 25%, top 50%?</p>

<p>Concerning the TOEFL: I took the TOEFL iBT (which is on a scale from 120-0) and scored a 113. 80 would have been enough for most colleges except for the very selective ones (they want 100). At the time I took the test I was able read and understand pretty much everything that did not involve too much technical vocab but my writing was ok at best and my speaking... oh well, I could order a pizza and ask for directions to the next bus stop but that's about it. My main problem was that my active vocab was really small (when I read a word I knew what it meant but I could not come up with it myself) and it took me forever to form coherent sentences... So much about the TOEFL and fluency :D</p>

<p>One semester of ESL at a community college would be an option, but you would still have to submit your high school transcript when you apply to colleges. And you should do the ESL program in the spring semester or during the summer because you should start college as a freshman in the fall semester. (There are lots of reasons why you should plan to start college in the fall semester: selective private colleges often don't accept applications for the spring semester; it's easier to make friends in the fall semester when everyone is new to college; a lot of courses are designed as a two semester sequence starting in the fall semester etc)</p>

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<p>Based on my grades from the last 2 years, I would be in the top 10% despite my bad grades in spanish and biology. However I am in the top 10, what do you really think about the community college option ? Because I have heard many different viewpoint about the CCC (calfornian community college); for some people it is a great way if you can't (due to many reasons : academic level, money...) go directly to a UC as a freshman but for some others, CCC offer a really bad education. It is why I'm so tormented, I don't know which side I should believe, I guess the truth is between the two sides. </p>

<p>I have an other question, what is the dispersion of the californian student between CCCs, CSUs and UCs ? </p>

<p>Thank you for your support :)</p>

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<p>Please help me !</p>

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<p>Disclaimer: the following is merely an (educated) guess and not something I know for sure.</p>

<p>I would expect that the vast majority of Californian top students (as in top 10% of class) go to the UCs. You will still find some top students at the CSUs and CCCs, but the CSUs seem to be targeted more at the average student (their median SAT and ACT score ranges are almost identical to the median SAT and ACT score ranges of the college-bound high school population). </p>

<p>Community colleges are their own world, but students who transfer to the UCs after attending a CCC seem to be more of an exception than the norm. Only about 13,000 students transfer from a CCC to a UC each year, compared to 2.5 million students currently enrolled at a CCC; that's only about 0.0052%. CCCs can be a good option for some students who initially cannot attend the UCs for some reason, but if I had the opportunity I would pick a UC over a CCC every time because I need a challenging academic environment that I would probably not find at a CCC... Are really only 0.01% (2 times .0052% because you typically attend community college for two years before transferring) of the students at CCCs UC material?</p>

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<p>P.S. Do you have your heart set on Berkeley or would you attend a less prestigious UC like Irvine or Santa Cruz as well? Because the transfer programs from CCCs to UCs exclude Berkeley and Los Angeles...</p>

<p>Assuming you would not be able to transfer to Berkeley after attending a CCC, why not apply to other UC campuses as a freshman? I am pretty sure that less prestigious UC campuses have a lot less international competition than Berkeley does... Attending a CCC for two years would save some (or a lot, depending on the point of view) money, but if money is not an issue I would give the other UCs a shot. Applying does not commit you to attend :)</p>

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<p>salut zwip778!</p>

<p>If you have American citizenship then you are considered a domestic student. So there goes your biggest hurdle. You may not even have to write the TOEFL because you're American. Make sure you double check your personal essays for grammatical mistakes.</p>

<p>A smaller obstacle is that you don't have California residency, so tuition will be higher, but once you're there for two years (?) you can switch your residency to Californian and pay the in-state tuition rate. So in your current situation, you might as well be living in New York as France.</p>

<p>il y a rien dont tu dois t'inquieter :)</p>

<p>Bonne chance</p>

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<p>P.P.S. :D :D :D</p>

<p>If your counselor states on the school report that you are in the top 10% of your class, I don't think that your low grades in bio and Spanish would hurt you a lot. The admission folks know that grades in other parts of the world are a lot lower than in the US. Heck, I had a couple of Cs and two D- in my junior and senior year and still graduated third in my class. In the US those grades would have probably put me in the bottom half of the class :)</p>

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<p>P.P.P.S. (it's getting embarrassing)</p>

<p>I completely missed that you are an American citizen. As such you don't face the typical international competition at top universities (not that the domestic competition is not fierce enough already...). But I am afraid you would still have to take the TOEFL. Who has to take it is determined by English language exposure (native speakers and students who have been educated primarily in English are excluded), not by citizenship status. Of course you could always claim that you were raised in English, making it your native language.</p>

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<p>My transcript had a couple of B's too though my principal said that I was in the top 5% of the graduating class and among the top 3 among students who had taken up the same courses as I did. I am from India though, and most schools dont really offer AP or IB here :( Is that a disadvanatage?</p>

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<p>First of all, sorry for the delay : internet didn't work and thank you very much for your answers B@r!um and Vicente ( are you french ? Do you studie in the US ?).</p>

<p>Like B@r!um said, I must take the TOEFL because I am not a native english speaker and I don't want to lie.</p>

<p>I don't want to seem pretentious but I'm really fixed on UC Berkeley though I know that other Ucs are also very good, notably UCLA.</p>

<p>I'm sorry for all those questions:</p>

<p>-How much do SAT and TOEFL cost ?</p>

<p>-Is SAT more a logic test than a test who aims at assess knowledges ? Because for the SAT 1 part, the mathematical skills are really poor so it's maybe a competition of fastness...</p>

<p>-Is it too late for taking SAT + TOEFL + send application for the fall semester ? If the answer is no, the spring semester seems to be an opportunity but as B@r!um said, start during the spring semester is advise against therefore I wouldn't know what to do ...</p>

<p>-Do you think that american universities will consider more my SAT scores or my transcript ?</p>

<p>-What you ( B@r!um) said about the percentage of students who transfer to a UC is overawing...just 0.0052 % !! It conveys the impression that it is nearly impossible to transfer to a UC but I have read in the forum a lot of story about transfers from community colleges to a UC so it is a bit conflicting. Maybe just the best students from CCC ( californian community colleges) visit college confidential ? </p>

<p>-I am really suprised by those figures :119 students at UCs ; 414000 at CSUs and 2.5 million at CCCs, it seems that nearly all the students go to CCC ? Or maybe, in the 2.5 million, there are a lot of people who don't attend a CCC in order to get an associate degree ?</p>

<p>-How much cost the application for UC Berkeley ?</p>

<p>-It is an anusual pathway for an international student to do one year of English as a Second Language before strating to take the credit courses ? I mean, it's maybe strange to do one year of ESL ? I'm wondering if I could take some math classes.</p>

<p>I'm going to sleep, it's 6 : 30 in the morning in France...</p>

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<p>Lol, just noticed that 13,000 out of 2.5 million is 0.5%, not 0.005%... I am surprised that nobody pointed that out. But CC caters mostly to top students so I am not surprised to read a lot of UC transfer stories here. Sometimes I have the impression that the average SAT score is somewhere around 2100 :D</p>

<p>It is too late to apply to Berkeley for the fall semester (application deadline was Dec 31). It is also too late to take the SAT in time to apply to any selective college for the fall semester (the registration deadline for the Jan SAT has passed, and the next test date after that is in March). You could technically still take the ACT (an alternative test to the SAT) in February if you signed up for it TODAY (01/04) but many selective colleges won't accept February test scores either. To complicate things further the ACT in February does not have the optional writing section which means that it won't be accepted by some colleges.</p>

<p>If you want me to, I can help you search for colleges with application deadlines in February or later that do not require the ACT writing part but that list won't contain any UCs or other prestigious universities. The most selective university I can think of right now is Penn State University Park.</p>

<p>Many selective colleges (including Berkeley) also don't accept new students for the spring semester at all. </p>

<p>It is not uncommon for international students to do a year of ESL first. But usually those students don't speak a lot of English (your English in contrast sounds just fine!) and full-time ESL programs don't allow you to take math classes...</p>

<p>To sum up your options: It is too late to apply to any prestigious university, but you could still apply to good (but not internationally renowned) colleges if you wanted to. Another option would be to enroll at a CC but doing a full year of ESL seems like a waste of time for you. If you enrolled at a CCC, you would most likely be able to transfer to a UC (information</a> on guaranteed transfer admission) but it will probably not be Berkeley. If transferring is an option, you could also attend any other four-year college for a year or two instead of a community college (that's what I would do, unless I wanted to take advantage of the guaranteed admission program to the UCs which however excludes Berkeley and UCLA). You could also look for colleges that accept spring semester applicants but that excludes most prestigious colleges as well. Or you could spend a year doing something else (work, travel, community service?) while working on your application for fall 2009. Or you could just start college in France and see how things go (you could still transfer to an American university after a year or study a semester or year abroad).</p>

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<p>zwip778,</p>

<p>I am a student at Berkeley now and I am kind of considered international since I came to the US only after I finished 10th grade in a nother country.</p>

<p>Since you have US citizen, I would highly recommend you to go to community college first before you enter the UC system simply because you can really save A LOT of money by doing that. You should enroll in a good community college (there are a couple of good community colleges that offer quality education), stay there for a year and then transfer. You should file out a tax return during that year so you would be considered as a resident of California and eventually qualify for many federal or state financial aid if your family is not super rich. By doing that, you will also have great chances to build up a solid GPA and show Berkeley that you are able to handle classes tought in English and such. You will also have a year to do more EC or get a good recommendation from your community college professer. </p>

<p>Some community colleges I would recommend you to attend would be: Pasadena City College and Santa Monica College. Also, many people who want to transfer to Berkeley go to Berkeley city college. </p>

<p>Good luck! You can do it!</p>

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<p>OO and regard the transfer rate for Berkeley from CCC's, I don't think it's THAT hard to transfer. Seriously, if you cannot pull a GPA that's at least like 3.7 or something for the first year in a CCC, then you probably won't be too successful in Berkekey. However, I don't think you will be considered international after you finish 1 year in a CCC since you already have the citizenship & also residency. The only thing about your int'l status that's against you right now is that it's hard for Berkeley to evaluate the grades you got in France. Any school in the US would so much rather to see some grades you get in the US since they would be more certain about how well you will be able to do in their university. So..basically I think the admission officers would put you in the same pool as all other California residents after you finish a year in a CCC which gives you big advantage!!</p>