Freshman Engineering Student Low Point; Does it get better?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
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<p>At the risk of outing my son's story here, I just had to post. My son is completing his first semester and I just spent an hour on the phone with him, re-hashing his doldrums, as I call them. *Let me state the obvious first: Yes, engineering is hard. Yes, students need to prioritize. Yes, he could change majors, transfers, etc. But here's the rub; he does not want to make any rash decisions based upon one semester. Very wise, but also painful to watch/endure as a parent. Just as a little background, he's always been a great student, leader, etc. so this down in the dumps thing is a new and difficult challenge.</p>

<p>I was wondering from those of you with experience out there, is it common to second guess your decisions on your major/career path at this juncture. I'm thinking it might be, but not sure at all. I'm wishing my son was undeclared, so he could try out different areas of interest, but right now he's not only immersed in the Engineering required freshman courses [with huge class sizes that he just hates], he also has spread himself very thin with other activities including government, band, and committees. </p>

<p>It didn't help either that he ended up in his last choice dorm, and with a real nice, but partying roommate who he is cordial with, but share no common interests it seems. My son does not party, as his first endeavor at it, found him hugging the porcelain god which really has made him gun-shy about even going to parties. Plus being so overwhelmed with his classes, he even added extra ones with permission, in hopes he could transfer into a dual-degree program. </p>

<p>I think he's feeling that things really backfired overextending himself, and just venting his regrets. I'm hoping that's all it is. He definitely feels boxed into things with his schedule and uncomfortable going outside that box. And with his schedule, it was awful this semester with full day into evening classes, with no breaks, etc. which has really worn him down. He went on to register for spring classes, the minute that registration opened, only to see later that the whole schedule was a complete mess, he didn't get what he wanted/needed, and he had to re-work it. Once again, getting an email today saying it was messed up again, as they changed a lab, which affected xyz, and now again, he has to try and re-do it. </p>

<p>Sounds like little problems, but it's sort of the straw that broke the camel's back here. He's wondering if he had chosen a smaller school he would not be experiencing these problems, etc. He's also second guessing turning down offers he received. [he had 7] But he loved Penn from the get-go. The city, the university, the history, the Ivy League. It seemed to be perfect...[is the honeymoon over, and it's time to suck it up, or ...?] And we love Penn, too. I wish I could brag to everyone that "my son LOVES it, and is doing great", but being the honest person that I am, I just say, "Well, it's really challenging, but he's doing well." Sort of.</p>

<p>So many of my son's friends came home for Thanksgiving saying how they 'love school' are doing great, and bla bla bla. Most even said how school was 'easy'. Ha...I can safely say that knowing them and knowing my son, they would not be bragging those words if they were at Penn Engineering. </p>

<p>Sorry for the vent. Advice welcome. Is this a 'This too shall pass moment'? Does it get better? </p>

<p>[I hope I don't regret posting this!]</p>

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<p>Wow Penn Engineering is really that hard? I wish I can offer you some advise from my experience but I haven't even gotten into Penn yet. Though hearing from my friends who are at Penn SEAS, they said that some people, mostly majoring in Bioengineering, are transferring to CAS because they just didn't like the course and realized that engineering is not for them. I guess it depends on how the classes are hard for him and how much he really likes his major. I'd probably stay for another semester.</p>

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<p>i believe, without knowing too many details of the situation, that there is much to discover that will improve your son's life here.</p>

<p>first semester engineering classes are rough. they're not particularly related to the true core engineering classes that your son will take (depending on major) in his later years, nor are they particularly engaging by nature of their introductory level. they may get better - or your son may find he no longer wishes to stay in engineering - but that's up to him. i can say that the "grunt work" of intro classes disappears when you get up into higher-level courses.</p>

<p>you mentioned extracurricular involvement - and that's a major factor, at least for myself, in enjoying life at penn - but not how much he's truly enjoying those roles (seems like a lot of student government and leadership stuff, but aside from band, what's there for fun?). classes only go so far in providing intellectual engagement - and some are disappointing - but getting involved in fun activities can be a tremendous stress-reliever and life-transformer.</p>

<p>lastly, changing one's major or career path is perfectly normal within engineering; i've changed my career path twice and degree program within bioengineering once, and am much happier for having done so.</p>

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<p>anyone else?</p>

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<p>Engineering anywhere is hard and especially chemical engineering if you're at Penn. </p>

<p>Your son's story isn't too uncommon among students at the top schools taking the hardest courses. A friend, in his last year of M&T at Penn, started college with the dream of becoming a doctor, switched to computer science, then to law, and now he's just sick of Penn and wants the start the job he has set up after he graduates. </p>

<p>Since it's his first year, he should try branching out in terms of classes and to see if he discovers any hidden interests. Engineering will only get harder from here on, and if he's not too into the whole social scene Penn provides then that won't help his atmosphere. He'll probably feel a lot of pressure from his classes if he's concentrating on them 24/7, so that too will add to the "low point."</p>

<p>tenebrousfire brings up a good point: your intro level engineering courses are really broad and have little to do with your desired field so they may seem like the wrong choice at first, but, supposedly, once classes become specific, they become much more interesting. If your son is really scientifically inclined, then he might want to continue his engineering path or try out the liberal arts side of science instead of the applied science side engineering offers. </p>

<p>To relieve stress, he doesn't have to party with his roommate. Try to get him involved with the ECs at Penn and encourage him to take classes that seem interesting, even if they don't have to do with his major.</p>

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<p>Engineering is a valuable degree to have b/c of its preprofessional nature. But, it's probably not for the faint of heart. Yes, there is a lot of work. Yes, there is a lot of pressure. That's something that your son should have considered in great depth before opting to apply to engineering schools. If in fact your son isn't interested in engineering/science/math, then he should probably change majors. The idea is to study something one can enjoy and connect with because that is what will ultimately lead to success. Consider the fact that 70% of doctors are depressed, which seems counterintuitive at first: why are they so unhappy if they have secure jobs with high pay? Chances are it's because these people either chose to do something they didn't enjoy or because they weren't clear on what they should expect. Don't let your son make the same mistake. And, once he does have a lucid objective in college, tell him to suck it up.</p>

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<p>Does your son have an advisor/mentor at Penn whom can help him out with course selection and scheduling? How large are the classes? I heard that Penn is a very social place. It really does not sound like the right fit for your son. Why should he be unhappy?
There are two things to sort out. First, if he really wants Engineering, it sounds like he needs a smaller school with a lot more personal attention. If this is the case, I suggest that you son apply to transfer. On the other hand, if the problem is that Engineering is the wrong field of study, but likes Penn in general (but not for Engineering), then I suggest that you support your son to take classes which really interest him and that he enjoys and stay at Penn (but not in Engineering). I suggest you really sort out if the difficulty is Engineering (then switch majors) or if Penn is over all not the right fit. As far as the roommate is concerned, this is a common problem everywhere. Your son can find a different roommate next year. Do not leave Penn because of the difference in roommate personalities. From your description, it sounds like Penn Engineering is not the right fit.</p>

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<p>nj,
thanks so much.....problem is his objectives are too lucid...he's already planning his combined mba/jd, post penn.....oh dear.....and he does see engineering as a 'skill set' he very much desires and is good at. </p>

<p>ps: personally, I wish he would do pre-med...being a medical professional myself, i can tell he definintely has 'the right stuff'..but then, i'm not going to push him one way or another....when he was just two years old, i used to wonder what he would do one day [he was pretty amazing, even then ;]...now i have to stand back and see what he decides...with support and hugs, of course..i'm such a mom, sorry.</p>

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<p>Great advice and insight, Tenebrousfire. I will pass along your thoughts to my son. Esp the career path flexibility. Thanks so much.</p>

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<p>Dear _____,
I do wish I had a mysterious screen name like that. You've hit the nail on the head with your post. Thank you. My son is already doing some of the things you advise. It does seem he recognizes and acts appropriately to situations, very maturely and thoughtfully. It doesn't make it easier however. Another frustrating example, is after pouring through the course selections, finding some Poly-Sci classes that would fill that need to step outside of the typical eng/math classes, and those were the ones that got knocked out when he did his schedule, twice. He's so frustrated he's ready to even push off his reading seminar to next year, as even that has been bouced twice, due to the huge physics/chem class conflicts. </p>

<p>He's such a thinker for an engineer....I mean, like liberal arts thinker, not implying he's smarter or anything. Loves history, politics, even writing papers. He was thrilled that one of his Eng courses actually had them write a paper this term. Said it was like a breath of fresh air. All problem sets all day, makes Jack a dull boy.
[sorry, couldn't help it!]</p>

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<p>Just one question, does your son know about CC? Why doesn't he come here and ask questions. I can tell that your son has his own opinion on what he wants to pursue, though with a few doubts. I respect you for being a caring and supportive parent, but I think it's best if your son find ways to solve his own problem, even if it takes a few mistakes.</p>

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<p>Dear Bubbletea,</p>

<p>Yes, I agree, but I don't think he'd ever come to post, even though I have sent him links before. Just not his style now, though he definitely listens to advice.
My husband and I were both saying tonight that the hardest part is standing back and watching [without diving in as parents]. We all do need to make our own decisions, mistakes, and so forth. </p>

<p>I simply posted to see if this was normal or common, and if Engineering does get better. The responses have been very helpful. I certainly don't want him to stay on a path where he seems unhappy, but sometimes discomfort is the root of our growth.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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<p>I think it is only going to get better if your son has a good advisor to help him match classes to his interests and schedules them, and if your son finds an area of Engineering which really interests him. My son is very happy at USC where he has small classes and a major within the Engineering school which is the right fit. He is a techie at heart. Perhaps your son needs more time to figure out which area of Engineering is right for him. To answer your question, yes, it is normal to find Enginieering hard and it only gets better if you are placed in the right area of Engineering for your interests. Perhaps your son should try to double major in Engineering with something at Wharton or do a major at Wharton and a minor in Engineering if that is possible. Your son is smart to take his time before making a decision if he wants to stay or transfer.</p>

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<p>mdcissp, i have to take issue with your points about school size and faculty advisor:</p>

<p>first, penn engineering is the second-smallest undergraduate school at penn; the largest department within penn engineering, bioengineering, has no more than 100 students per year - the large intro classes are merely a fact of life at any large institution where students are asked to take the same core subjects. attrition reduces class sizes, too - the smallest departments, like mechanical engineering, can have less than 50 students in a year.</p>

<p>second, an assigned faculty advisor can be, but is not necessarily, a positive asset. to be honest, i have never seen much need to consult my advisor, and my peers feel largely the same - we take the initiative to work out our course planning on our own, as instructions are clearly given to us (and it seems like capecodylady8's son is doing this quite well). faculty advisors sometimes do not know the full extent of the system, either.</p>

<p>agreed, though, that fit is key, as is determining the right major, whether within or outside of engineering.</p>

<hr>

<p>at penn, in general, course selection is a student-driven process - however, in each engineering department (at least in mine), there are advising directors who are much more capable than the faculty advisors, and i encourage capecodlady8's son to consult with these dedicated advisors who i have found to be much more helpful.</p>

<p>incidentally, i happen to feel the same way about liberal arts classes, and i hope he is able to fit in good electives to explore his interests.</p>

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<p>Maybe I'm inferring something that's not there, but it sounds like his social life may not be that great? If it is that, he will probably, with time, find a social scene that he likes, and that will probably help. I say this because my brother (not at Penn) had an absolutely miserable for semester at his school because he didn't get into the social scene due to a girlfriend back at home, but then from second semester he found a really close group of friends and he's basically been in love with it ever since. Of course, his school/courseload isn't nearly as hard as Penn/your sons, but if the social thing DOES have something to do with it, that could get better.</p>

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<p>Thank you, mdcissp,
I somehow missed your post last evening. My son does want to pursue a dual degree, he had hoped for M&T but he's not sure how that will go, since he really over-extended himself this fall and perhaps may fall short of GPA requirements come the time of transfer applications due to it. Guess that's his biggest regret, thinking he could do everything, and still ace everything. I'm sure it's pretty common that great students from everywhere, get chinks in their armors once they hit the reality of college academics, particularly engineering hopefuls. Given my son's passions, I'm pretty sure he'll figure it all out, but it can be distressing getting over humps.<br>
He was much better today in an email. He's already been studying like crazy to do well on his final exams, some it seems will count up to 45% of his final grade, so it's no time to choke. Normally he does not have any test anxiety, did great on SATs, AP, Subject tests, etc. but has been thrown a couple of times by his mid-terms, where he thought he had studied and knew everything, but the exams offered challenges that suprised him.<br>
Thanks again. Glad your son is doing well at USC.
I am encouraged that things will get better, classes smaller, etc. That will help. I'm hoping the Poly-Sci course works out too. [I made the mistake of looking at the class reg numbers, and hope he realized that it was limited over 200!] Oh dear, again ;)</p>

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<p>Dear Scribbler,
Yes, the social life does leave a bit to be desired, but as I mentioned the party scene did not start out on the right foot. My son is a more relaxed person when he's with friends he's at ease with. And as much as I don't think it would be a good idea now, in the past when he had a steady girlfriend, he really was so happy and seemingly balanced. I think he misses that, but only vaguely complains that he has no time at all to even meet girls. Of course he's friendly with the girls in his dorm, etc. as well as the guys, but he definitely would be happier if he had some good buddies. I do think his floor is pretty tight, so that's really been great. Seem like really nice kids.</p>

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<p>Well...I am a little confused here. CapeCodLady claims her son "hates the large size classes" required for freshmen Engineering students. Are these required general ed. core classes or are they required Engineering classes? A Penn student who is on the scene at Penn said the Engineering school is very small. Perhaps your son went to a private high school with 10 kids in a class which makes a small Engineering class at Penn seem big? I am not quite sure which classes are too large for CapeCodLady's son. However, I think her point is that her son is studying very hard and is feeling overwhelmed/challenged in Engineering despite a stellar,outstanding academic background in high school. The question seems to be is CapeCodLady's son in the right major within Engineering, should he transfer to another major at Penn, or should he transfer to a smaller university which is not as rigorous as the Ivy League? Also, CapeCodLady's son appears to be having some difficulty scheduling his desired classes.
To help determine the best academic path with the best match of classes to fit this student's profile, I suggested seeing an academic advisor/mentor at Penn Engineering.
When you are a freshman and brand new at any university, it can be very helpful to seek guidance/advice from a professional in the department to make sure you are fulfilling your academic interests/passion. CapeCodLady's son sounds like he has eclectic, varied interests-Engineering, music, business school, aspiring law school, etc. He also seems more happy and relaxed with his prior girl friend than in an overwhelming social environment. Penn (and I can't say this is truly the case) has a reputation as being a school with very social, outgoing students. Based upon the info. given, it sounds like CapeCodLady's son wants to be at Penn (prestigious, Ivy League, strong academics, etc.) and wants to try to find his niche (which is why he is not immediately transferring). Therefore, I think the best thing is to consult with an academic advisor and be open to transferring to either another major or to figure out which area of Engineering is the right path.</p>

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<p>Dear mdcissp,
No confusion, you're correct. And the class sizes that he feels are impersonal are the core, required engineering classes, but I do hear that gets much better. And I know that other places it would be much worse in terms of class size. His are 'only' perhaps in the 100-150 range [?], and I know that other places it is much, much higher, so actually it's not bad at all considering. </p>

<p>He also has met with advisors, TAs, and profs as needed through the semester. One of the advisors [I forget which type it was], was very helpful. Though admittedly it was very hard to find a matching time to meet with anyone, with his schedule. But he was persistent. Older students in his declared major have also offered good advice.<br>
He really hasn't had too much of a taste of his major yet, though said his final lab for the semester was really great which was very encouraging. </p>

<p>As background, my son went to a medium sized public high school and most of his classes were under 30 students, so adjustment to college style lectures perhaps comes into play a little bit. He said he doesn't 'mind it', but it seems impersonal. Also just a college 101 learning curve. He's never minded the size of Penn at all, in general terms. </p>

<p>All of this discussion has made me want to go down and visit and take him out to dinner or something. I do wish we were closer. He texted it snowed yesterday and it was nice. The Eagles also beat the Giants, so that was sweet, too. hehe</p>

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<p>A typical case is the engineering freshmen who wants to do a Dual Degree (M&T or not) with Wharton and is very ambitious. As a result, he will take the hardest classes and overwhelm himself on the first semester or year, which will affect his GPA, thus frustrating his dream to do the Dual, and making him feel bad because he's not doing as well as he expected, and closing some doors to him because of the low GPA. This exact thing happened to me an some of my friends. My advice regarding the academic part and the selection of courses is not to overwhelm yourself on the first year. The first year is a period of adjustment in every aspect, and taking all math+science classes can be overwhelming in the sense that it's very hard to do well in all of them. So I would suggest for a balanced course load, taking perhaps the writing seminar early on, or polisci classes, as you mention. Regarding the schedule conflicts, I think your son is unnecessarily autoboxing himself here. Sure, sometimes there are two classes that you really want to take and they conflict, but there are n number of classes that are either similar or equally interesting. If the class is full, then chances are you can get into it by talking to the professor on the first day of class, or by constantly checking Penn InTocuh to see if space opens up. In my entire undergraduate life I've never had a real problem of not getting a class I want because if full. And regarding conflicts you just need to be smart about it and explore every possible options. If there is a conflict right now then you may be able to take it later. Regarding the social life, it happens to all of us. I'm not a social person myself (but I don't really care), but I can tell you that things usually get better after freshman year. Nest year you will be familiar with the system and you will be more relaxed about everything. Look at it from the bright side: the low GPA can be a strong motivation to do great in sophomore year. Last piece of advice: make sure engineering is really what he wants to do. There is no need to go through all this pain if he's not happy with it. There is a great number of available options, and now is the right time to explore or changes. Then it becomes harder.</p>